Fandom sociology discussion question :D

[splintered-soul.livejournal.com]

I think one of the greatest things about the Naruto manga is the characters that Kishimoto writes. Despite my bitchings, I always thought he created a wonderfully dynamic cast.

Part II, I felt, was no different. In the first arc we were introduced to Sasori, Chiyo, Deidara, and Tobi. And even Tobi was warmly welcomed and liked. The Penis Arc, however, has gotten more negative criticism.

So opinions on Yamato and Sai, not in that do you like them but do you think that are well made characterwise.

I wanted to make a sort of rating system for them but I find that a simple 1-10 scale isn't exactly a great way to capture parts of stories. So just tell me if they are bad, decent, good, or great characters in your own way. Thanks.






At first I thought Sai was a genius character. His presence had fans angry, and I thought that any character that could invoke so much emotion was a winner. As a personality himself, I wasn't that interested because I had felt that I have had seen him before but I did love the tension he brought to Team 7 and the little spice he gave Naruto's and Sakura's character. However, I noticed that some people got bored with Sai-centric chapters, (though others loved it) and I began to wonder if Sai was quickly becoming faded.

I will admit, I thought Sai's character development was awkward. It seemed rushed to me, it only took a line or two from Naruto to bring him down despite chapter after chapter establishing that Sai was, indeed, unfeeling. Though I have read pretty convincing arguments otherwise, to me I felt cheated.

As a plot bringer, Sai was important. He was necessary for a lot of things to happen. But I also felt like Kishimoto wasted a lot on this. He had red herrings EVERYWHERE in this arc, but it turns out that what wasn't real was one of the more interesting things that could have happened, a solid transition to civil, or even a world war. Instead... Danzou is still chilling around Konoha and nothing has happened.

And it felt odd to me that Kishimoto was gearing him up to be Sasuke's replacement. He kept writing that they were similiar, but to me it didn't feel that way. He seemed an able character to stand by himself, but now he's labeled the Sasuke replacement. It makes me wonder that IF Sasuke's character can come back, will Sai will be able to stay a strong presence without being redundant?

In short, I liked what Sai brought to Team 7, but I did not enjoy his character himself. Despite my misgivings of NeoTeam7, I hope that Sai's character is further refined.



Yamato... is Yamato. I feel almost bad about this, but I think he is empty as a character. Personality, he's ok because he's likable. But there wasn't much to him, nor do I think he has a lot of potential. Perhaps Kakashi spoiled me, but I don't think I can ever get emotionally attached to him. He felt like he was there to do plot things, and leave. He found himself comfortably in Team 7 but everything felt so generic.

I did read once, though, that Yamato is to Naruto and Sakura to what Kakashi is to Sasuke. Yamato is just what Naruto and Sakura needs, like Kakashi is just what Sasuke needed. But even that seems kind of dull.

His saving grace is his one personality quirk, which was one of the most amusing things about Part II, and his past. Hopefully Kishimoto will further delve into the two.




I understand that this is probably going to be a sensitive issue because a lot of people are attached to them, so I hope there won't be any wars ;_;. I also ask that mindless bashing like "HE sux0rz" be not present. I'm truly interested in reading what Sai and Yamato fans have to say because the majority of people I know don't like them.

Comments

[a-white-rain.livejournal.com]

I agree. Sai is a pretty good plot device and much more interesting then others (like Tenten or Itachi) but he was wasted as a character. Yamaoto bores me, but I don't dislike him.

[ryo0oki.livejournal.com]

Yes, while I like Sai for the humor he brings to lj icons, I have to say that both of these are characters are sorely lacking...

[the--ivorytower.livejournal.com]

I'd very much like to hear more about Yamato, since they imply that he was created through genetic splicing, and anything that involves the first two Hokage I find to be fascinating.

Sai I think is very much like Sasuke, but it lends a contrast. I mean, Naruto and Sakura like Sasuke so much that they've dedicated the past three years to gear up to follow him, but they dislike Sai, and they're so similar. Why is that, do you think? Could it be, to an outsider, the relationship Sakura and Naruto possess with Sasuke might seem strange, and Sai is meant to drive that point home?

Time will tell. I've learned to be patient, but I'm very, very curious.

[magical-poof.livejournal.com]

Mostly, I think Sai's "revelation" came too soon and too easily. Would an entire lifetime be undone by one phrase from Naruto? We all know that Kishimoto has recently (or perhaps at the start of Part II) gotten into stressing how Naruto "changes" people. Well, that's great and all, but, "I'm not going to give up on my friend because he's my friend, even though he stuck his hand through my chest." Wouldn't change my mind.

Honestly, Sai's deep tragic past was... Not deep nor tragic.

Sai: Dude, I keep a hit-list about all the people I've killed. I did it for my brother, too, we were close like that. I forgot what I was going to draw on the middle page. Damn.
Naruto: Me and Sasuke are like brothers.
Sai: Oh yeah, I was going to draw my brother. Duh.
Sasuke: I hate my brother. That is my only bond.
Naruto/Sakura/Sai: STFU!
Orochimaru: Come along my pet, we shall leave them for another day.
Sasuke: ...Why?
Kabuto: Because there's a 0.0000000000000001% chance that they'll help you annoy Itachi.
Sasuke: ... 'kay.
*Back at Konoha*
Sai: I love you guys. I wanna be BFFs forever.
Sakura: Sorry... You're only here 'till Sasuke comes back.
Sai: Oh... That's cool.
Yamato: What about me?
Naruto: You're still here?

And that's about it. >_>

[http://users.livejournal.com/____ero__sennin/]

Honestly, I've never liked Sai. I didn't like him as Mr. Emotionless Bastard, and I don't like him as Mr. Reformed. His character, in a nutshell, is "No Emotions Penis Penis Penis Treachery OMG Friends Ouch-Stabbed Friends Yay." He was irritating before he went "evil", which made him less likable, and then he was redeemed so quickly it's just heavy-handed on Kishimoto's part (I love Kishimoto dearly, but he ain't perfect).

Yamato is...yeah, kind of just there. I find him interesting, and he's a nice contrast to Kakashi, but he's still just bland. A person who's there to be there.

[lykomancer.livejournal.com]

Agreed.
Sai annoys me for a lot of other reasons, but man, his 'conversion' was weak. I kept hoping that there was going to be more about that-- and there might be still-- but over all? C'mon, Naruto had to pound the ever-lovin' stuffing out of even Neji to get through to him...and yet all he had to do with Sai is have a little chat with him? It seems too easy and it makes the character WEAK.

More developement of his past and of his motivations might help round him out and make more sense of Sai for me, but so far I'm pretty unimpressed.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

First question, who the hell was Tobi? And for the record, I dislike all the Akatsuki members that aren't either Itachi or Kisame. Especially Sasori.

Back to the question at hand, Sai, I like because, despite what fans say, he does seem to have a good potential for aiding the Sasuke and Naruto friendship. That and he's another interesting foil for Sasuke. As a character himself, I worry because I do agree his development was rushed. I do also believe that he exists only to die and further the story. I do view him as a Sasuke-replacemet but not in a resentful way or the way that most view him, I see him as something similar to Sasuke that Naruto can bond with and save. And that relationship, if nutured, could serve as a catalyst once it is most painfully severed, as I imagine it will be. I've never really viewed either Sai or Yamato as characters onto themselves but more like elements to reach a given destination. I have no given up faith yet that Kishimoto will prove me right.

Yamato to me is just boring. I understand why he has his powers and why Tsunade sent him. I understand the importance of him harnessing Kyuubi and encouraging Sakura. I understand his want to protect his team. But I also have seen nothing else beyond that. I won't say he's perfect but he's too under-developed for me to judge properly. Yamato is a prop in my eyes and nothing more. A tool for the storyline. He gets hurts, he is fallable but has absolutely nothing in his backstory or current story to draw me in as a reader. Nope, the clone thing or whatever isn't cutting it.

[ballades.livejournal.com]

I think the reason why I like both Sai and Yamato is that they're peeks into the very vast world of Naruto. They're both enigmas; we don't know what either of them really can do, where they came from, how they work, how they tick, etc. That keeps me interested. Yamato's origins are captivating to me, and I want to know more about him and his personality. Sai... is just hilariously cute.

[ovendoor.livejournal.com]

I agree about how Sai's emotions changed at a rapid rate, which really did throw me off.
But, i may be saying this because im extremely attached to bitchy!Sai, i don't think that's all there is to it. I mean Kishimoto made such a complex character, someone who was, at the time, the complete opposite of Naruto, and with one or two words Sai completely changed.
I don't get that, there has to be something else there. It's just too happy!yey to be true XD

[lazzchan.livejournal.com]

I really don't care for either of the characters. They both seem like empty characters, almost as if Kishimoto sensei is losing heart in his writing or the people he's bringing in.

[blacknymph.livejournal.com]

Actually, I never really like Sai either. I heard from most of my Flist that he was an awesome character, and I should check it out--since I was behind at that point--but I gotta say, I was pretty disappointed.

And Yamato...well, he's pretty boring. I really do like him, though, but I miss Kakashi more.

[chirigami.livejournal.com]

I was a bit iffed about Sai's rapid personality change - though mind you, I've always adored the boy - until a friend of mine made a really good point: Sai is a lemming; he has no emotions nor real thoughts of his own, thus it was easy to sway him to a different point of view. Look how much he follows Danzou's orders without a care nor real thought of why he's doing it in the first place but because that's all he knows. With Naruto, there was passion behind his words and something that maybe hit into Sai from his long forgotten past. So what happens? Well, Sai goes 'okay!' and changes his mind in a flash.

I don't think he's really being put into the position of Sasuke's replacement, just a new character that somewhat resembles him but will be trying to find his own little nitch - while trying to get his own damn little brain and stop being such a sheep.

As for Yamato, he's okay but I haven't put much thought into his aside from trying to make his costume for a friend xD;

[rasenth.livejournal.com]

Your whole little script gave me a nice giggle or two. XD
Kabuto: Because there's a 0.0000000000000001% chance that they'll help you annoy Itachi.
*PFFT* THAT IS WAY TOO TRUE.

Anywho, I think everybody agrees that Sai's conversion was way too quick. *SIGH* Usually Kishimoto is good at showing conversions, but it looks like he was rushing. Good God, it wasn't dramatic AT ALL. O_O A nice sit down, a little chat, then whambamthankyoumaam HE'S SAVED.
My theory is that Sai is going to be killed off soon... no time for any kind of gradual conversion? =_=;
But I do give Kishimoto some credit for chapter 310. Even though the change in Sai was VERY awkward, I think this chapter ties in pretty well. :D I just can't shake off the warm fuzzy feeling that the last page gives me. XD

[kunoichi-jaden.livejournal.com]

Well, with Sai... I like him. I'm not exactly sure why though. I did feel his turnaround was too hasty, but then again... how much did he turn from? In comparison, we've already dealt with the "bastard that doesn't care about friends and family" -- his name is Gaara-- or Neji. Pick one. So it wasn't anything different from what we've seen before. Sai's baggage didn't seem that heavy, that's all.
What I felt was really bogus about Sai in this part was his sudden will to protect the bonds between Naruto and Sasuke-- where the heck did that motivation come from? He doesn't even know Sasuke, nor does he know the details of his relationship with Naruto. I know the point of that was to illustrate how emotionally moving Naruto's feelings are... but I think that role of protection would've been better if given to Sakura. She's the person that has a connection with both Naruto and Sasuke and is the best at understanding what the bonds between the three of them mean. I feel like Kishimoto had a chance to add to her personality development (which I feel severely lacks in comparison to her teammates) and he just passed over it.

Yamato is a Gary Stu of the worst kind. XD But I love him for that. He's awesome because he can officially do EVERYTHING. You want a house? Got it. You want a perfect key? Got it. The guy is superpowered. He owes it all to Orochimaru-sama, of course, which is really hilarious to me. XD See? Orochimaru has done good things for Konoha, he gave them a super-powered clone of Shodai Hokage. Honestly, I think Yamato was there mostly for the "older, more experienced ninja" factor. Naruto and Sakura don't really require a sensei anymore (Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Kakashi were enough) so perhaps that's why his role seemed to be lacking. Most older ninja we know in the series are attached to the role of sensei and Yamato didn't have that.

...wow, that was long. *puts it in her LJ*

[yira-heerai.livejournal.com]

I have to disagree with you on the civil war thing. A great tactician bides his time, which may be what Danzou's doing now. I have a feeling there's more to that plotline that we'll see in later chapters, though I doubt I could explain it very well and have it make sense to anyone else but me XD;;

I don't think of Sai as a replacement at all. I don't think I ever did. He was a temporary replacement with a bad attitude. He didn't like Sasuke. He antagonized his teammates and I loved him for it. His difficulties with emotions are understandable.. and I truly think that maybe, the whole emotionless thing was more of an act of denial than anything else. Having no facial expressions doesn't necessarily mean that he had no feelings. This doesn't mean that his turn-around wasn't rushed, but that is the way I see it. *shrugs* It's the same as Sasuke. He's trying to act emotionless, he tells people he doesn't care but the boy is lying through his teeth. I could be entirely wrong, but yeah.

I didn't form much of an opinion on Yamato. He provided some humor in a number of ways, but that's about it. He was overconfident, that much I could tell. He didn't stop Naruto when he went into Kyuubi mode because he assumed that the tails wouldn't form as quick as they did. That was arrogance on his part. His reactions did amuse me, though. Ohter than that, he's just there. I really hope he plays more of a role in later chapters, but I'm curious to see what will happen when Kakashi steps back in. It'd certainly be a waste of character if he left right after Kakashi came back.

Another thing to think about, possibly, is the theme Kishimoto has going on about similarities between characters and parallels between time frames. The similarities between Yondaime and Naruto; between Team 7 and the team Jiraya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru are on. Kakashi's team and Team 7. The list goes on and on. So maybe, just maybe, Sai isn't so much a replacement for Sasuke as he is a parallel. Maybe Sai is forshadowing what could happen later on?

...I let my mind run away with me XD;; Sorry. *slinks away*

[ormery.livejournal.com]

I ... don't dislike either of them. I don't think Sai is any kind of replacement for Sasuke, or Yamato any kind of replacement for Kakashi. (While I would like to see Kakashi again – that whole last section would have gone completely differently if Kakashi had been there, and obviously Kishimoto needed Sasuke to be able to bugger off. I think Kakashi would have gone a further way towards stopping him, and that's clearly not what needed to happen there.) I think the reason a lot of people dislike Sai is out of worry he's a threat to Team Seven, but he's ... not. Sai is nothing like Sasuke and is very unlikely to form a relationship with Sakura or Naruto that's anything like what either of them has with Sasuke.

Neo-Team Seven, whatever, it's not Team Seven. It's a team that has Naruto and Sakura in it. Sai's not replacing anyone, and neither is Yamato.

I expect both of them have a fair bit left to be revealed, and I reckon that'll come in due time – although I was rather disappointed to see a lack of any, you know, flashbackery on Yamato's part when Orochimaru turned up, y'know? Like, hey, he's the guy who CREATED you, you might want to let us know what you think about that, huh? No? Fine ...

There's clearly more to know about Sai, there's clearly more to know about Yamato, and Danzou ... is clearly plotting something. Just 'cause it didn't happen immediately doesn't necessarily mean a wasted opportunity. I'm pretty sure letting Sai go off and do his emotions-and-friends! thing isn't out of benevolence or anything. He's not, like, moved by Sai's smile or whatever. He's going to come back and bite them all on the bottom later.

I will, like most, admit that the speed at which Sai was turned around was rather ... disappointing? After a fair amount of time had been spent on him previously, to have that happen so quickly ... Still, there wasn't any actual negative feeling he had there that needed to be actually turned around, and I agree with yira_heerai on the emotionless bit – not showing emotions isn't the same as being emotionless. And in fact, we can take his u-turn as, rather than being bad writing, being evidence that he was just waiting for an excuse all this time, he's always wanted to have BONDS but you know, opportunity don't come up in his line of work, does it? And then spending time with Naruto and Sakura, who have these BONDS OF DEATH with Sasuke and one another, that's just going to intensify his longing for what he's missing, and so when the opportunity to convert to the church of Uzumaki Naruto arises he's just like OH PLEES YES PLEES WHERE DO I SIGN?

I quite like Sai, basically ^^'

I'm pretty much indifferent to Yamato, although it's leaning towards the positive side of indifferent. In terms of plot, he's useful; in terms of character, he's amusing on a basic level but without too much behind it, although I expect if he hangs around (rather than just MAGICALLY DISAPPEARING when Kakashi shows his face again, which would be disappointing) we'll find more behind it. Bear in mind we're comparing him to characters who've been built up for more than three hundred chapters. In time we'll see more of him – and that applies to Sai, too.

[ninja-demongirl.livejournal.com]

I love sai.

As for Yamoto He lacks what is needed to be the new Kakashi.

[queenoftea.livejournal.com]

They both need more development, and not just empty dialogue or backstory. Yamato I can see myself liking later on, once he's shown more than just competence and scary flashlight skillz.

Sai would have been fine if it hadn't been for the 'OMG! I am suddenly reformed!'. I mean... in real life, people w/ no emotions don't randomly get them after someone talks about their brothers. It's a, whaddyacallit, mental condition. Maybe once we learn about his brother it'll make more sense?

[touched-venus.livejournal.com]

I have to say that agree with all your points on both characters. That was very well written.