So confused

[jade-wynds.livejournal.com]

So I have a couple questions about 485. I didn't follow some of the logic and I was hoping you guys could explain it to me

1. Sasuke
How does killing everyone in Konoha cleanse his clan? Because 90% of Konoha's population right now probably weren't responsible. And how does cleansing the clan = revival? Basically, what is his reason/logic/motivation?

Sasuke keeps on using that word. I do not think it means what he thinks it means.

2. Kakashi
Ok, I can maybe buy that Sasuke is indirectly a victim of the anti-Uchiha era. Even though it didn't really seem to be a problem until he found out the truth. But why does that make Sasuke Kakashi's responsibility? Why does a lack of experience with the past preclude Naruto and Sakura from fighting? What drove him to this conclusion?

Edited to clarify: How does Kakashi's memory/experience with the anti-Uchiha era make him especially responsible for Sasuke? I understand the responsibility he feels as their sensei and what not, but this just seemed out of the blue.

On a completely unrelated note, did anyone else squee when Kakashi was being all sensei-ish and trying to protect their innocence, even now?  THEY'RE SO DYSFUNCTIONALLY CUTE.

Comments

[libraire.livejournal.com]

1. Sasuke has no logic at the moment HAHA. He's pretty much snapped, and it probably makes sense in his mind, but not in reality.

2. I think Kakashi feels responsible, still? He didn't succeed in stopping Sasuke back before he left with the Sound 5, and I think it still kind of eats at him. I also think he doesn't want to burden Sakura and Naruto with killing their comrade, which I think is his plan with Sasuke :/

[leaf-kunoichi.livejournal.com]

1. He is batshit crazy. He is after revenge. It is a cliche that people want revenge to make wrongs right even when they won't undo the wrong in the first place.

2. Kakashi feels responsible for Sasuke like the Third felt responsible for Orochimaru. They were entrusted with helping to shape their students and their students turned to evil. Kakashi couldn't stop Sasuke from this path. He failed.

[andykg.livejournal.com]

1. Apparentely, he's cleaning his clan's name. Konoha treated Uchiha as scum, so Sasuke wants to bring back the clan's honorful days, that's the revival. Besides, he can't repopulate his clan 'cuz he's gay, so he needed alternatives.XD

2. Kakashi fells responsable becuase he didn't stop Sasuke on time, he should have trained/educated him better. Adn he doesn't want Naruto adn Sakura falling so low too.

[platedlizard.livejournal.com]

1. The people of Konoha live in the peace and prosperity that was built upon the deaths of the Uchiha. It doesn't matter if they knew about it or not, they still profited. He wants them to feel what he and his clan felt when they were wiped out. As for revival, you have to understand that the ninja world (and Japan) are honor-based societies. The Uchiha clan was wiped out from within by someone who was manipulated from the outside, destroying its honor. In order to regain (or revive) the clan's honor Sasuke has to show the world that it still matters, by destroying the Konoha he is restoring the honor that was lost.

2.Kakashi is Sasuke's teacher. He's the one who taught him the chidori, and pretty much all of the basic stuff ninja needs to know. The fact that Sasuke has apparently thrown all that away (teamwork, caring for others, etc) means that he failed as a sensei. Since Kakashi screwed up it's up to him to fix it, by killing Sasuke.

[stabletimeloops.livejournal.com]

1) Sasuke, I think, has accepted that he will die in his quest. What he's trying to accomplish is what he views as the cleansing of his clan's name. In alot of respects, he's trying to sever the Uchiha completely from Konoha by doing to Konoha what Konoha did to the Uchiha - killing them all.

There's not much rationality in it, but again, Sasuke is past the point of rationality. He's a 16-year old kid that became seriously mentally fucked up at the age of 8. He's spent half of his life hating his brother, whom was probably his strongest bond to begin with, only to find out that Konoha suppressed the Uchiha and took advantage of Itachi's peaceful desires, only to turn them into a scapegoat. That sort of broke him on so many levels that he's rationalizing his desire for revenge and he's given up thinking about much.

2) Kakashi feels responsible because, I think, Sasuke, Sakura, and Naruto were his team. And he was their teacher. And he knows that he could have done so much more for them, but he didn't. In some respects, if Kakashi had done more, he probably thinks that he could have prevented Sasuke from leaving Konoha, which would have developed his other bonds and made his reaction to the Uchiha Coup much less extreme, probably. He was the one adult in Sasuke's life that could have helped saved him, and he messed up and he wants to take responsibility.

Regarding Sakura and Naruto, it's because he intends to kill him. And he will. But Sakura, who was going to, just couldn't do it. Twice. And Naruto still thinks he deserves to be saved. So, from Kakashi's perspective, they would probably just get in the way of killing Sasuke.

[chibimary.livejournal.com]

1. Best answer EVER!

[chibimary.livejournal.com]

1. Best answer EVER no.2!

[jade-wynds.livejournal.com]

1: Aha! I knew something got lost in the cultural translation! Thanks for clearing that up, it makes a lot more sense now.

2: I was actually wondering why his experience with the anti-Uchiha era makes him feel extra-responsible. And a little bit how Sasuke is a victim of that era. I mean, Kakashi doesn't know how Madara has been manipulating Sasuke. And when Sasuke was on team 7 it really wasn't that big a deal to him...Or am I misreading it entirely?

[jade-wynds.livejournal.com]

1. So we're supposed to be confused? (not a sarcastic question) Because if so, Kishi is doing a hell of a job.

2. I was actually specifically wondering why Kakashi being around for the era where everyone hated the Uchiha makes killing Sasuke his business. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that!

[jade-wynds.livejournal.com]

Wow, that was a really accurate, succinct rundown of the characters. *goes to see if you have fic*

[shinigami002.livejournal.com]

RE No.2: I think Kakashi also feels that Naruto and Sakura don't truly understand the history surrounding the Uchiha clan. As a person who knows about it and lived through the massacre period, Kakashi feels that he understand Sasuke's anger. As people already mentioned, he feels responsible for not taking the depth of Sasuke's feelings for his clan into consideration when he was younger. Plus, he probably also believes that as a victim of the hatred toward the Uchiha, Sasuke is beyond the redemption point, so he has to kill him (and he doesn't want Sakura and Naruto to deal with it).

[hungrytiger11.livejournal.com]

To address the second point, It's important to remember that Kakashi has grown up during war, and times of political uncertianty and has, as a result, seen much more gore (and, presumably, backstabbing and political manuvering). He has also seen first hand that war means both sides always do horrible things, and there are always victims of those actions. These victims are not people who fall off the face of the earth, rather they are like Nagato. Victims of those actions are shaped by that one horrible event. Some don't have the power for revenge, but others, like Nagoto do. Every action has consequences. Naruto and Sakura and their peers are the first generation to grow up in relative peace. They have been able to form more idealistic ways, and have not seen either the violence, or the results of war. Sasuke, having his family wiped out, essentially is one of those victims of war actions, and hence something Naruto and Sakura don't have a real understanding of. The best they can have is an intellectual understanding of this.

Kakashi may feel it is his responsiblity to kill Sasuke then for several reasons. He may think that Naruto may not realize they have to commit this act of killing. He may feel that as someone who brought about that era of peace, he failed in keeping the results/fallout of war from encroaching on that era of peace. He may want to keep Naruto and Sakura from having to kill their old commrade, as that action is more in line with the truths of that warring era than the peaceful ideals they have been able to cultivate. He may, essentially, want to keep them more pure. Most likely some combination of all three.

A recent emerging clash of themes seems to be the "old ninja ways" versus Naruto's ideals. These "Ninja World" ways are the ideas that Danzou might epitomize, or which Itachi's sacrifice is a part of. There is a sense that things come at prices. Naruto's ideals, which were explored quite fully in the first part, are much simpler - people can have their world visions realized through sheer force of will. Only hard work and friendship is needed; no sacrifice must be made. We see the clash of these ideas with Nagato and Naruto's "understanding" of him, with Gaara to a lesser extent, and most recently when Kakashi apologizes to Sakura for making her think things could go back to normal. The "ninja world" represents the adult world; Naruto's ideals represent innocence. The resolution of the themes will likely result in a way to keep hopeful without ignorance. Gaara's leadership role, and Naruto's understanding of Nagato are already leading us in this direction. But, Kakashi has not realized that yet. Currently he is feeling twinned regrets that his students weren't allowed to keep their idealistic worldview and that he didn't prepare them better to face the harshness of reality.

[inknose.livejournal.com]

oooh thank you for your answer number 1 - I didn't feel confused, but I actually feel like I understand the whole thing a lot better now :D

[platedlizard.livejournal.com]

Honestly I think we need a little more context about the time. He was ANBU, so it's possible he knew something or was involved with something (like, how did the massacre take place without someone in the main village finding out during it? What kept oh, say, a delivery man from walking in at the right moment?) But for now, based on what we know, I don't think we can say that Kakashi feels personally responsible for that legacy of hate. I believe that all of his personal sense of responsibility stems directly from being Sasuke's teacher.

Now, Kakashi may well feel that Konoha as a whole is responsible for it. In all likelihood Kakashi will become the next Hokage, and he knows it, so he may feel that he as Hokage is responsible. This is much like how I feel about, say, Abu Ghraib. I was not personally involved with that, so I am not personally responsible, but the torture there was done by Americans, in the US Army, in America's name, and so as an American I feel responsible. I believe that is what Kakashi meant about the legacy of hate.

[platedlizard.livejournal.com]

I like this explanation better then mine. Thank you.

[pikabot]

Sasuke is suffering from debilitating mental illness. His logic is not healthy-person logic.

[wintery-banana.livejournal.com]

i agree

[wintery-banana.livejournal.com]

The "ninja world" represents the adult world; Naruto's ideals represent innocence. The resolution of the themes will likely result in a way to keep hopeful without ignorance.

this.

[jade-wynds.livejournal.com]

But then Naruto and Sakura are from Konoha too. Why should they be precluded? Does Kakashi's theoretical suspicion of what went down the night of the massacre separate him from them?

[jade-wynds.livejournal.com]

It's not logic at all. And I feel like it's supposed to be. I want to know where he's coming from and what his motivation is, even if I don't agree with it. I feel like he was supposed to go from point A to point C, but I feel like he went from point A to point Q. He might as well have said. "People in Konoha eat ice cream, so I must destroy them!"

[jade-wynds.livejournal.com]

This makes total sense now. Thank you.

And the whole idealism/war dichotomy was something I'd always been aware of, but you really highlighted it for me. Now I remember why I love Naruto so much.

Thank you for an insightful, eye-opening answer.

[jade-wynds.livejournal.com]

Ah I see. Hmm, this seems like a very layered conclusion on Kakashi's part. I feel a little better about not getting it all now.

[chibimary.livejournal.com]

Except of the random crazy gestures I kinda DO understand why he wants to destroy Konoha.
If some organization did something to MY family using someone I trust I'd want to grind them and the land they're standing on into dust as well.

[pikabot]

It doesn't make any sense to us, because we are not operating on the logic of a mentally ill teenager. I assure you, to him it makes perfect sense.