(no subject)

[rianax.livejournal.com]

Just a quick question....why does NejiHina bring up so many 'ewww, incest' comments?

I think I have seen more noise over Hyugacest than Uchihacest, but never seen any real concrete support against the pairing.

The Hyuga did not get those pretty white eyes by diversifying their genetic portfolio. They are willing to bind and blind those out of the direct line of descent, but not indulge in generations of accepted selective breeding?

Add in the fact that Hiashi gets to keep the line of succession intact, get a strong heir, and appease his guilt over his brother's death, the prospectives of an arranged match between Hinata and Neji look good.

Given the Hyugas must be a bitch to marry into and even more so for the heir apparent and the absolute lack of any Japanese cultural taboo against first cousin marriage, why does HinaNeji bring out such a strong reaction?

I can't think of any logical reason other than an offended and overblown sense of ethnocentricity.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

:D You know, I think the reason there is more of a reaction to Hyugacest is because it *is* quite probable. It's almost cannon with little 4 year old Neji saying Hinata was cute.

Soo yes, definitely ethnocentricity but throw in bit of naiveté and the fact that Hyugacest is pretty accessible since it's implied in the text and not holed away under the protective cover of a small fandom like Uchihacest.

Also, and this has just been my observation, but it seems like slashers are far less easily squicked. Het fans just don’t have the same kind of fortitude.

[domlandbubbles.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's an "eeww, het!" thing. Or maybe the mental image of Neji brutalizing Hinata weirds people out more than Itachi squishing Sasuke. I sorta get the whole RedBathrobe!Stanley Kowalski-Blanche Dubois vibe off Neji-Hinata.

Or maybe it's just the creepy white eyes.

[rianax.livejournal.com]

/Or maybe it's just the creepy white eyes./

It is all about the creepy white eyes.

The Hyugas have a head over the Uchiha, they can have to /live/ with their relatives.

[sexytwist.livejournal.com]

Eh, just because it's culturally acceptable somewhere doesn't mean it's not squicky to some people. Not that I care if other people like it. It just that any kind of incest just doesn't float my boat at all. Everyone's allowed their preferences, it has nothing to do with 'logic' or 'an overblown sense of ethnocentricity.'

[rianax.livejournal.com]

/Het fans just don’t have the same kind of fortitude./

Slashers do not shy away from the dark side even if they grossly abuse it at times.

Too many of the het pairings try to turn Sakura in a happy baby making factory or the Hyugas into the Waltons.

[akaitokage.livejournal.com]

I don't mind Hyuugahest, but I'm certainly not for it. One of my favorite pairings is Kiba/Hinata, so that kind of puts a damper on that, no?

And also, I'm not a huge fan of incest. It's not even like they're cousins 4th removed, Hizashi and Hiashi were twins.

[rianax.livejournal.com]

/Everyone's allowed their preferences, it has nothing to do with 'logic' or 'an overblown sense of ethnocentricity.'/

Everyone is allowed to have their favorites, but are not allowed to pick on someone else's without back-up.

'I don't like NejiHina, it is sick and incestful' is immature and shortsighted.

'I don't like NejiHina because their personalities would clash and make it difficult to communicate at all' is dissenting but intelligent.

And it has everything to do with logic. Unless you are writing a high school AU, the character's history and dynamics have to come into play whether they help or hinder the coupling otherwise you are underwriting the character.

Cutting out Sasuke's obsession with his brother weakens the writing of his affections for Sakura. The story gains depth and color when Sasuke has to struggle with ihs conflicting desires and love triumphs in the end.

Writing Hinata or Neji (less so) and not dealing with the entanglements of Hyuga politics lessens the characters. Who they are and where they have been has every relevence to where a writer wants them to go.

The Hyugas are complicated, screwed-up, and convoluted-- Neji and Hinata even more so. Ignoring that no one a favor.

[leaute.livejournal.com]

What you said makes a good deal of sense. In fact, Hyugacest has always been the one incestuous, Naruto pairing that has made an odd sort of sense to me for the same reasons that you stated above.

However, to parrot sexytwist, incest just isn't something I've really ever been into. I don't mind if it's your thing or anything and admit that your logic is very plausible, but it's just not something I, myself, chose ot indulge in.

As for Uchihacest, I can't say that I can deny the validity of the pairing, but I've never stumbled upon proof *for* this particular couple to refute in the first place either. If that's your thing, then by all means write it. However, I've never read a theory or explanation that makes sense in justifying Sasuke with Itachi.

It isn't about being personally offended by either of these pairings. It really just comes down to the fact that I don't personally like those pairings in the first place, and, on top of that, incestuous relationships in anything have never been my cup of tea.

[leaute.livejournal.com]

I'm sort of a Neji/Tenten fan myself, so that probably also has something to do with it on my end as well. :P

[rianax.livejournal.com]

I adore KibaHina myself, but I am not going to ignore the entanglements of them getting together nor the fact that the first cousin taboo does not exist in most places in the world or history.

Hizashi and Hiashi were twins, and that fact does nothing except illustrated how warped the Hyuga traditions are. Neji should and almost did care for his cousin as he nature intended, but that natural kinship tie was warped by pain, humiliation, and bitterness sowed in place of a true sibling like relationship.

[sexytwist.livejournal.com]

Haha, I think you may be looking a bit too deeply into this.

Many times fan stuff is just that-Fan stuff. To indulge in what interests you. It doesn't mean that it is all the time GOOD. But if you don't like it, or it doesn't interest you, ignore! That's what I do. I don't bash. No point in that either. Certain people hate my pet pairings. That's fine. Whatever!

But really, I don't think any of us have any real grasp on what is going on in Kishimoto-sensei's head with the inner workings of the characters. Yes, many of them have been fleshed out very well, but we still can't get inside their heads and know exactly what they are thinking. Honestly, if ANYONE in the world claims to "understand" Itachi then they are full of crap. Or claim to understand any of the underworkings of politics of Konoha clans, or Suna clans, or whatever. It's just impossible. We haven't seen that much of them. We don't know who most people's moms are. How can we understand the clans?

I don't think pairings are Kishimoto-sensei's purpose in this manga anyways. ;D

[rianax.livejournal.com]

/However, to parrot sexytwist, incest just isn't something I've really ever been into. I don't mind if it's your thing or anything and admit that your logic is very plausible, but it's just not something I, myself, chose ot indulge in./

Which I completely respect.

It was only that people argued against its validity using nothing but incest as the govening factor without even bothering to consider the reasoning behind it or any relevant reasoning.

It is like arguing against a pairing because it is yaoi or het. That statement in and of itself is not enough.

Writers have a duty to make their subject believable or at least attempt to. Some pairings are more work, but that is what makes them more challenging. NejiHina is not canon by any means, but it has aleast as much if not more logical support than KakaIru.

/However, I've never read a theory or explanation that makes sense in justifying Sasuke with Itachi./

Neither can I, other than Itachi has seemingly fucked over his brother every concievable way possible other than actually doing it.

Basically like Orchimaru, Itachi is a sociapath. What is not beneath him?

/on top of that, incestuous relationships in anything have never been my cup of tea./

Perfectly understandable.

My beef was mainly that some American fans shove away any cultural differances that they do not like blindly, like having Miroku from Inuyasha swearing 'Jesus H Christ' when he is a monk in 15th Japan.

[rianax.livejournal.com]

My point is if you are going to argue one way or another on a pairing or subject, and especially if you are going to be making value judgements then you need to be prepared beyond 'that is gross.'

/It's just impossible. We haven't seen that much of them. We don't know who most people's moms are. How can we understand the clans?/

Isn't that the point of fandom, speculation and theory and debate over what fasinates you about the series?

We might not know the genin's mother's names, but we know they have them, and we can reason out how their parents might have gotten together based on their temperment and background.

The exact inner workings might be a mystery to us, but probabilities of certain relationships can be infer from canon. They do not say that Sand had civil conflict after the Leaf invasion, but given that Sand was already in a precarious position before, lost their Kage, lost the war, and ended up with Gaara running the place three years later than it would be a safe bet that it happen. To what degree is a matter of personal choice and skill in the telling.

The logic of these grey areas is not as much a matter of right vs wrong, but intellgent supposition. What if and what maybe so to speak.

/I don't think pairings are Kishimoto-sensei's purpose in this manga anyways./

That is not the purpose of the show, but the subject is not what is canon as there are about three canon romantic relationships shown, but whether a opinion can stand on it own ground.

[leaute.livejournal.com]

It was only that people argued against its validity using nothing but incest as the govening factor without even bothering to consider the reasoning behind it or any relevant reasoning.

Yes, I really hate it when people you the "because I don't like it!" reason to explain why they dislike pairings (or any aspect of a series or video game for that matter...-.-) I understand how that would be frustrating.

Writers have a duty to make their subject believable or at least attempt to. Some pairings are more work, but that is what makes them more challenging. NejiHina is not canon by any means, but it has aleast as much if not more logical support than KakaIru.

What? Two, hawt guys screwing isn't logical in and of itself? XD Not a big fan of KakaIru myself, and I'll definately agree with you that NejiHina makes more sense than that.

Neither can I, other than Itachi has seemingly fucked over his brother every concievable way possible other than actually doing it.

Basically like Orchimaru, Itachi is a sociapath. What is not beneath him?

I could see Itachi possibly screwing around with Sasuke for the sole purpose of fucking with him even further. Though he is a certified sociopath, I guess I've just never pictured him as the type to be concerned with sexual relations or anything or the sort. There's really little more to it, though I can admit that it wouldn't be such a stretch if it came down to it.

My beef was mainly that some American fans shove away any cultural differances that they do not like blindly, like having Miroku from Inuyasha swearing 'Jesus H Christ' when he is a monk in 15th Japan.

I think a lot of people are influenced by their own culture, thus it bleeds into the things they enjoy and do. I don't think there's necessarily anything horribly wrong with that, as every culture does it. I admit that the fact that I'm American probably does have something to do with the fact that I don't enjoy incestuous pairings and, were I born elsewhere, my view might be different. However, you really need to think about the culture you're involved in before making comments like "Incest is yucky!" to support yourself.

That said, there is something wrong with Miroku saying "Jesus H. Christ!" Ouch, my brain.

At any rate, Orochimaru is one of my favorite characters in Naruto besides Neji, so I really can't talk about incest being "yucky" when I adore the gay/possibly bisexual child molester. XD

[domlandbubbles.livejournal.com]

There's no pairing police. People can prefer who they want regardless of canon, just as you can prefer to get annoyed by it. As long as people are having fun why stress?

As a total aside, just as I'm reading this, Neji's "love confession" from O Naruto Nippon! came up on my MP3 list.

How fitting.

Now Shikamaru is singing about cats.

[sexytwist.livejournal.com]

Nobody has to do anything! If something is yucky to someone they are under NO obligation to write about it, or to incorporate it into their writing or interpretation of the characters! It may stray farther from canon and be completely implausible, as well as be uninteresting to others and bad fiction, but so what?

Nothing anyone writes is canon anyways, so who cares? People are allowed to think incest is gross just because they think it's gross. You are allowed to think those people have their heads up their tushies. I am allowed to rabidly fangirl Sasuke and Naruto doing it like bunnies.

Umm...in conclusion...we are running in circles. I'm not sure why I started his debate when my personal stance on all of this is 'just do what floats your boat!' :D

Oh yeah...and ewwwww Neji/Hina. Now...Hina/Neji...that could be interesting...O_o

[akaitokage.livejournal.com]

Did I also mention that Neji tried to kill Hinata? Another damper on that relationship.

[sexytwist.livejournal.com]

hahahahahahaha

[akaitokage.livejournal.com]

I'm serious, kind of hard to enjoy a relationship when it goes haywire like that.

H: "I love you..."
N: "Instructor, if she doesn't stop I'm going for the kill."
H: "There's nobody there honey."
*Internal Fucking Damage*
H: *coughs up blood* "Neji, sweetie..."

Rinse and repeat.

[akaitokage.livejournal.com]

Yeah, and that pain/warping makes it a little hard to love the other person in the Eros form/Erotic way (AHA! And "Ero" root... possibly related to "Ero-sennin Jiraiya"? No, because one is a romantic language and the other is well... Japanese), wouldn't you say?

With the whole "Neji vs. Hinata" fight, and five instructors needing to jump in to keep Neji from killing Hinata, I think it's safe to say: That relationship isn't healthy.

[sexytwist.livejournal.com]

Heh, I think that is part of the reason I dislike Uchihacest so much (beyond the 'cest) part of it. I cannot imagine those two together in any way that isn't destructive and or abusive and or non consentual.

[darkwarrior.livejournal.com]

Aren't they cousins?

Its not that horrendous, at least they aren't brother and sister.

[lexkixass.livejournal.com]

NejiTen OTP. :P :)

As for NejiHina, I've got mixed feelings. I can see it happening, but I don't like it. The incest thing does squick me, and also, I'm more a NejiTen shipper. So that plays a large part.

[lexkixass.livejournal.com]

If you think about it, since Hiashi and Hizashi are identical twins, then genetically Neji and Hinata are half-siblings. I know that some cultures do have half-siblings marry (ancient Egypt the only one my brain's providing), so even then you have to take in account cultural differences.

I was gonna include my two cents on NejiHina but my brain took this opportunity to die. It's protesting the overworking I gave it yesterday.

[lexkixass.livejournal.com]

My beef was mainly that some American fans shove away any cultural differances that they do not like blindly, like having Miroku from Inuyasha swearing 'Jesus H Christ' when he is a monk in 15th Japan.

>>That said, there is something wrong with Miroku saying "Jesus H. Christ!" Ouch, my brain.

Seconded.

*brain 'splody*