(no subject)

[rianax.livejournal.com]

Just a quick question....why does NejiHina bring up so many 'ewww, incest' comments?

I think I have seen more noise over Hyugacest than Uchihacest, but never seen any real concrete support against the pairing.

The Hyuga did not get those pretty white eyes by diversifying their genetic portfolio. They are willing to bind and blind those out of the direct line of descent, but not indulge in generations of accepted selective breeding?

Add in the fact that Hiashi gets to keep the line of succession intact, get a strong heir, and appease his guilt over his brother's death, the prospectives of an arranged match between Hinata and Neji look good.

Given the Hyugas must be a bitch to marry into and even more so for the heir apparent and the absolute lack of any Japanese cultural taboo against first cousin marriage, why does HinaNeji bring out such a strong reaction?

I can't think of any logical reason other than an offended and overblown sense of ethnocentricity.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

:D You know, I think the reason there is more of a reaction to Hyugacest is because it *is* quite probable. It's almost cannon with little 4 year old Neji saying Hinata was cute.

Soo yes, definitely ethnocentricity but throw in bit of naiveté and the fact that Hyugacest is pretty accessible since it's implied in the text and not holed away under the protective cover of a small fandom like Uchihacest.

Also, and this has just been my observation, but it seems like slashers are far less easily squicked. Het fans just don’t have the same kind of fortitude.

[rianax.livejournal.com]

/Het fans just don’t have the same kind of fortitude./

Slashers do not shy away from the dark side even if they grossly abuse it at times.

Too many of the het pairings try to turn Sakura in a happy baby making factory or the Hyugas into the Waltons.

[domlandbubbles.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's an "eeww, het!" thing. Or maybe the mental image of Neji brutalizing Hinata weirds people out more than Itachi squishing Sasuke. I sorta get the whole RedBathrobe!Stanley Kowalski-Blanche Dubois vibe off Neji-Hinata.

Or maybe it's just the creepy white eyes.

[rianax.livejournal.com]

/Or maybe it's just the creepy white eyes./

It is all about the creepy white eyes.

The Hyugas have a head over the Uchiha, they can have to /live/ with their relatives.

[sexytwist.livejournal.com]

Eh, just because it's culturally acceptable somewhere doesn't mean it's not squicky to some people. Not that I care if other people like it. It just that any kind of incest just doesn't float my boat at all. Everyone's allowed their preferences, it has nothing to do with 'logic' or 'an overblown sense of ethnocentricity.'

[rianax.livejournal.com]

/Everyone's allowed their preferences, it has nothing to do with 'logic' or 'an overblown sense of ethnocentricity.'/

Everyone is allowed to have their favorites, but are not allowed to pick on someone else's without back-up.

'I don't like NejiHina, it is sick and incestful' is immature and shortsighted.

'I don't like NejiHina because their personalities would clash and make it difficult to communicate at all' is dissenting but intelligent.

And it has everything to do with logic. Unless you are writing a high school AU, the character's history and dynamics have to come into play whether they help or hinder the coupling otherwise you are underwriting the character.

Cutting out Sasuke's obsession with his brother weakens the writing of his affections for Sakura. The story gains depth and color when Sasuke has to struggle with ihs conflicting desires and love triumphs in the end.

Writing Hinata or Neji (less so) and not dealing with the entanglements of Hyuga politics lessens the characters. Who they are and where they have been has every relevence to where a writer wants them to go.

The Hyugas are complicated, screwed-up, and convoluted-- Neji and Hinata even more so. Ignoring that no one a favor.

[akaitokage.livejournal.com]

I don't mind Hyuugahest, but I'm certainly not for it. One of my favorite pairings is Kiba/Hinata, so that kind of puts a damper on that, no?

And also, I'm not a huge fan of incest. It's not even like they're cousins 4th removed, Hizashi and Hiashi were twins.

[leaute.livejournal.com]

I'm sort of a Neji/Tenten fan myself, so that probably also has something to do with it on my end as well. :P

[leaute.livejournal.com]

What you said makes a good deal of sense. In fact, Hyugacest has always been the one incestuous, Naruto pairing that has made an odd sort of sense to me for the same reasons that you stated above.

However, to parrot sexytwist, incest just isn't something I've really ever been into. I don't mind if it's your thing or anything and admit that your logic is very plausible, but it's just not something I, myself, chose ot indulge in.

As for Uchihacest, I can't say that I can deny the validity of the pairing, but I've never stumbled upon proof *for* this particular couple to refute in the first place either. If that's your thing, then by all means write it. However, I've never read a theory or explanation that makes sense in justifying Sasuke with Itachi.

It isn't about being personally offended by either of these pairings. It really just comes down to the fact that I don't personally like those pairings in the first place, and, on top of that, incestuous relationships in anything have never been my cup of tea.

[rianax.livejournal.com]

/However, to parrot sexytwist, incest just isn't something I've really ever been into. I don't mind if it's your thing or anything and admit that your logic is very plausible, but it's just not something I, myself, chose ot indulge in./

Which I completely respect.

It was only that people argued against its validity using nothing but incest as the govening factor without even bothering to consider the reasoning behind it or any relevant reasoning.

It is like arguing against a pairing because it is yaoi or het. That statement in and of itself is not enough.

Writers have a duty to make their subject believable or at least attempt to. Some pairings are more work, but that is what makes them more challenging. NejiHina is not canon by any means, but it has aleast as much if not more logical support than KakaIru.

/However, I've never read a theory or explanation that makes sense in justifying Sasuke with Itachi./

Neither can I, other than Itachi has seemingly fucked over his brother every concievable way possible other than actually doing it.

Basically like Orchimaru, Itachi is a sociapath. What is not beneath him?

/on top of that, incestuous relationships in anything have never been my cup of tea./

Perfectly understandable.

My beef was mainly that some American fans shove away any cultural differances that they do not like blindly, like having Miroku from Inuyasha swearing 'Jesus H Christ' when he is a monk in 15th Japan.

[darkwarrior.livejournal.com]

Aren't they cousins?

Its not that horrendous, at least they aren't brother and sister.

[lexkixass.livejournal.com]

If you think about it, since Hiashi and Hizashi are identical twins, then genetically Neji and Hinata are half-siblings. I know that some cultures do have half-siblings marry (ancient Egypt the only one my brain's providing), so even then you have to take in account cultural differences.

I was gonna include my two cents on NejiHina but my brain took this opportunity to die. It's protesting the overworking I gave it yesterday.

[superheroine]

I don't entirely believe that the byakugan is genetics. I haven't watched/read the Hyuuga mini-arc for a long time, so I'm probably wrong here on many counts, but I'll give this a shot anyway.

There is no one we've seen, in all the Hyuuga, that doesn't have those eyes. Meaning, they are extremely interbred, or the byakugan is something that can be given to you.

I'm going by the latter. I'm much more prone to believe that "protecting the secrets of the byakugan" is actually "the secret of how to GIVE someone a byakugan". Otherwise, what exactly are these enemies such as Gashir trying to steal? The knowledge that byakugan lets you see through things? Seems kind of odd to me. I definitely lean, unless someone can correct this or prove it wrong, that byakugan is something the Hyuuga offspring and people who marry in to the family are given. Otherwise, the Hyuuga would start having brain problems and physical problems from being interbred so much.

It's highly unlikely that the house is that huge that it could sustain itself by interbreeding for that long - much like the Uchiha, although it seems more likely that the Sharingan is based on genetics than gifting it to someone.

So maybe incest in the family is a less-than-desired thing.

Incest doesn't bother me much. I like some types of Sandcest, I've read many good Hyuugacest that manage to overcome the jealousy complex. I dislike Uchihacest.

Neji and Hinata? After the chuunin exam, are COOL with each other. I recall the scene when Neji's training with Hiashi, and Hinata brings them tea. Note the calm conversation. I'd say that she's forgiven him, in typical Hinata style, and he's overcome his jealously, because while he may not become a Head of the House, nor is he a Main House member, he is accepted for his talents and is being trained by Hiashi nevertheless. If it's set after the Chuunin exams, I see no reason for them to really quarrel or that.

Uchihacest... see, that's the fangirls who make it popular. I DESPISE the pairing. I just don't get it. Sasuke HATES and LOATHES and WANTS TO MURDER Itachi for what he did - not play uke for him. Sasuke, regardless of what people (including myself :p) joke about, isn't a wimp - he's a serious, determined and completely driven boy who wants nothing more than to KILL HIS BROTHER and revive his clan. He's twelve years old, and dreams of murdering someone and making babies. His dream has NOTHING to do with having sex with Itachi. That will not revive the fucking clan, okay?

If Itachi DIDN'T go psychotic on the Uchiha clan, things could be different. But it doesn't change the fact that Sasuke looked up to him as a HERO and a BROTHER and a ROLE MODEL. He was, what, eight years old? He didn't want to screw his brother. Itachi protected Sasuke and maybe even loved him - as a brother - and tried to get rid of his shadow, which was looming over Sasuke's head and crushing his brother under Itachi's own talents and gains.

And now I'm just going happy on the caps :p

[leaute.livejournal.com]

Now THAT is an intelligent response to why it wouldn't work out that doesn't rely on "EW NASTY!" as it's reasoning. ^.^

You make a lot of sense, and, when responding in my earlier post, I didn't really consider the brain-damage aspect of severe inter-breeding. It's too early for me, so you'll have to excuse the lack of brain functionality. Ah well, as I said, I've never been into incestuous, Naruto relationships. Well said.

[andrew-jp.livejournal.com]

Fans like to pair up people that physically complement each other. Neji and Hinata are just too similar-looking for most people's tastes.

[rejectedstalker.livejournal.com]

Hmm...not really. It's only the eyes. ^^; Their hair is totally different and their heads and bodies are pretty differently shaped. :P

Itachi and Sasuke probably look more similar.

[hyperactivator.livejournal.com]

Whoever got the notion that bloodline limits had to be passed down/created by incest seems think that it is just like dog breeding when there is know evidence too suport that incest is used in the big clans in cannon at all much less nessasary.

You are forgeting Haku.

His father wasn't even a ninja and yet he still gained a powerfull bloodline limit from his mother.

I think its just luck of the draw usually that causes bloodline limits to be passed down. But in order to stablize the clans ninja have developed medical tests(genetic) to determine wheather a marrige would result in the children with the bloodline limit.

This way virtaly everyone in the family will have be able to use the spell.

[superheroine]

... of course. But unless my theory is correct, then, if they did that, there would be an even chance of being a) non-byakugan-eyed or b) byakugan-eyed. There are NO VISIBLE HYUUGA MEMBERS WITHOUT THE BYAKUGAN.

So let's say Neji gets it on with.... Tenten. (@) is Byakugan eyed, (%) is non-Byakugan eyed.

Neji (@) and Tenten (%) have a child. Let's say that this child ends up (@). As the child gets half of its mother's genetics and half of its father's, we're going to go with the fact that the kid got his father's eye genes.

Now this child meets a (%), and they have children. So (@) and (%) is going to make either a (@) child or a (%) child. There's a 50-50 chance of either. Let's say that the child ends up (@) again.

What are the odds, that over centuries of breeding outside of the family, that EVERYONE ends up with the Hyuuga eyes? Also, does the blood not get "polluted" as time goes by, and the Byakugan's quality weakened?

So let's say they have medical tests. Regardless of whether or not they found an outsider with a high chance of "reproducing the Byakugan", which is technically impossible in itself, it's still impossible to determine who would be good or not, unless the outside had NO EYE GENES.

There is an even FIFTY-FIFTY chance, regardless of who the people are, that the chromosomes are going to be selected. Face it - little Nejiten-spawn is going to get either daddy's eyes or mommy's eyes, and even if Neji chooses Sakura, Ino or Temari, there still is a 50-50 chance. One girl over another won't change that.

But they're NOT going to get Neji's eyes every. Single. Time. Even getting three (@) out of three children is unlikely. Over time, yes, if the Hyuuga continue to marry outside of the family, then their bloodline limit will weaken and normal-eyed people will invade the family.

And I say all this having just complete grade 9 science. So, yeah. There may be mistakes.

Therefore.... somewhere in there, incest is almost favoured just to keep the blood clean (though, arguably, interbreeding won't exactly work for long, as new genes brings in new gene combinations, which makes stronger and more varied people) OR, my theory, as I posted above, is correct. I can't really think of any other at the moment.

I wonder if Kishimoto has even bothered to think of this. *laughs*

[nephilim.livejournal.com]

And here's your answer;

No one likes Neji.

[caninedreamer.livejournal.com]

XD

Well, I suppose you have a point. And everyone likes Sasuke and Itachi.

(Come to think of it, I'm more of a Neji fan but not Hinata, could explain it.)

Still, a lot of people do like those two characters but not with eachother. And even then, enough people don't like them to be loud and annoying dissidents who loudly bash the pairing.

[tentenchan.livejournal.com]

I hate all incest.

Basically, since the two of them had identical twin fathers their genes are half the same which makes them more like half-brother and half-sister. For Neji to marry into the Main house would be impossible. It would be more likely that he would marry into the Branch. This is because there would be no way to remove the seal from Neji's forehead and Hiashi would not risk marrying a Branch house member into the Main House.

[rianax.livejournal.com]

/For Neji to marry into the Main house would be impossible./

Except for:

-Hiashi getting to appease his guilt over his brother's death

-Hiashi getting a strong heir without messing up the line of succession

-Little cultural and no famial taboos against close kin marriages, and more than likely prefered.

/This is because there would be no way to remove the seal from Neji's forehead and Hiashi would not risk marrying a Branch house member into the Main House./

Two scenerios:

A) if they put in on, they could take it off, the Hyuga are nothing if pragmatic, what happens if god forbid something happen to the Head and his heirs? Does the line of succession get settled by popular vote?

B) even if it can't be taken off, Neji's children (and Hizashi's grandchildren) would be Main house members and Hinata is going to have to marry someone. Branch House makes more sense than outsider.

[essenceofmalice.livejournal.com]

I wish I had an unbiased reply to this. XD I'm a big ItaSasu fan and while I don't go "ewwww" at Hyuugacest, I can see where the turnoff factor comes from. And no, it's not just 'cause it's het... I think it also has more to do with their personalities. I've seen plenty of fanart of them and it's very pretty and can be very sweet, but thinking of both their personalities in an actual sexual relationship.. it just doesn't add up in my head for some reason. o_o; There's no squick factor involved for me, it's just one of those pairings that I cannot imagine really happening.

I do think, though, as someone already said, that the yaoi fans are much less squicked by incest than het fans. That might have a lot to do with it. And also, when you compare Hyuugacest to Uchihacest... they're in completely different worlds. Don't forget that ItaSasu is rather angsty and abusive most of the time. ^-^; Lots of Sasuke torture going on there, which doesn't happen in NejiHina.

[/end ramble]

[rianax.livejournal.com]

Finely some honest and intelligent opposition.

That I can understand if disagree with and it actual based on reasoning rather than kneejerk cultural bias.

[herchuckness.livejournal.com]

My reaction to Hyuugacest is more "ehh" than "eww". I don't really care about either Hyuuga (especially not Hinata, she had one cool moment in the chuunin exams and was little more than a cardboard cutout for the rest of the series), whereas Uchihacest features two of my favorite characters, making it much more interesting to me. There is also the fact that no matter how fucked up their relationship is (and yes, that is part of the appeal) there won't be any genetically mutated Uchiha children out of their hott sexxins. With Hyuugas that's a definite possibility, and that fact is a large part of the reason why incest is taboo.

There is also, with Uchihacest, a very intense emotional connection there - at least on Sasuke's side, it's hard to tell what the hell Itachi thinks about anything. (He does exhibit a soft spot for Sasuke though. Well, as soft as a sociopathic mass murderer gets.) Before the massacre it was admiration and love, now it's hate - but Sasuke is still obsessed with surpassing his brother, his life is dedicated to it. Intense emotional involvement - good or bad - makes for better pr0n IMO. And as someone else mentioned, the tension between Neji and Hinata is pretty much resolved by the end of part 1.


besides, the Hyuugas don't get scenes like this (http://www.livejournal.com/userpic/22365643/3401099) one (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/herchuckness/naruto/nikushimi_ga.jpg). XD

[splintered-soul.livejournal.com]

NejiHina is actually one of the only incest pairings I have ever liked. Ever.

Even though... gentically their like half siblings.

...

[meriness.livejournal.com]

I think the main element is the idea that Neji would probably purposely hurt hinata. that's the most popular storyline at any rate. With the Uchihas there always seems to be this undercurrent of "Sasuke wants it" or "Itachi's doing it as his love for Sasuke" or other somesuch fiddle faddle. I think Neji isn't as popular due to his mean streak (I luffs him!) so a lot of people will write about his and Hinata's relationship as something brutal. Personally the whole Intermarriage among the Hyuugas was totally there. I mean, they obviously HAVE to preserve their bloodline. So creepy nowadays but true. With the Uchihas however, that's totally not possible at this venture. With them it has more to do with emotions and hatred and love and all that stuff fanficcers just adore.

Main diff: The Hyuugas would prolly be forced to marry
The Uchihas definitely will not be forced to marry. XD

[rasenth.livejournal.com]

I like NejiHina for its fluff when they were children. That scene when Neji says Hinata was cute is so freakin' adorable. XD The big reason why I started liking the pairing! And then there was that scene when it looked like he mended his problems with Hinata in the chapter right before Naruto leaves. The way he smiled at her was awfully cute. :D It doesn't seem Neji despises Hinata anymore by this time, so why do people say, "Because he'll be abusiiive! D:" 'n crap? SIIIGH!

I don't get people and their fear of "deformed children" from incestual sex. It's not like they HAVE to marry and have sex if they like each other. o__o; But meh, if that's what they thiiink...

And I'm pretty sure if Hinata was a boy, she would be uke in a bazillion pairings. X_x

[rianax.livejournal.com]

/D It doesn't seem Neji despises Hinata anymore by this time, so why do people say, "Because he'll be abusiiive! D:" 'n crap? SIIIGH!/

The relationship is less abusive than say SasuNaru given recent canon.

Neji was not abusive in the physical sense. Even brimming with unresolved anger, he is not a cruel for the sake of cruelty. He was fatalistic bitter little boy who believed that nothing, not hard work, not determination, not even love, could change the fate laid down at birth. He and the father he adored were helpless against the mark inscribed on their foreheads and he thought his father died because of it.

That is why he is hateful to people say loudly otherwise (ie. Lee, Naruto, and Hinata) because he sees them as deluded fools that can not face up to the facts of life, and why is is so spiteful to Hinata. She is mousy, shy, and weaker than him by leagues but she is still the Heir, still above him, and could lay him out flat with a single gesture (even though Hinata would never do that), all qualities that lead him to fixate on her as the object of all resentment he feels for the Main House. But he is not cruel; in the Chuunin Exam, he tells Hinata to backdown that she has no chance against him, and hurts her to prove the point. They are in a fight-- Neji is not going to yield the match. He does not actively try to kill Hinata until she quietly rips away all his illusions and calling him on his own pain.

[rianax.livejournal.com]

That I can understand liking a couple dynamics better.

[demeter918.livejournal.com]

Any form of incest - whether it's culturally acceptable or not - is always going to squick many and interest others. They're not going to change my opinion in thinking it's plausible and filled with so much potential for angst and likewise, I'm not going to have the ability to change their opinion that it's "ew! gross!"

Adding something: sure, the people who aren't fans of Hyuugacest and make a loud and vocal protest over it need a good spanking sometimes, but it's culturally unacceptable here for first cousins to wed. So while there's no taboo in Japan (and much of Asia, actually), there is one here and that should also be recognized.

Though, personally, I don't find see anything wrong with first cousins getting married, and I love the Neji/Hinata pairing as much as I love Neji/TenTen.

[rianax.livejournal.com]

/So while there's no taboo in Japan (and much of Asia, actually), there is one here and that should also be recognized/

That depends on the state you live in, and if we were taking about a fandom set in the USA, that would be a rational agrument.

But Naruto is set neither in the US or modern times. Culturally the series is based on Japanese morales and social customs, and ignoring that completely because of cultural bias is nothing more than ethnocentricity. You do not have to like, but you have to acknowledge the difference in the context of the series.

[theboxization.livejournal.com]

Prolly just seconding what everyone else has said: Uchihacest has more tension, NejiHina has "omgbewbieseeww" working against it, and people pay no attention to the Hinata-brings-tea-like-a-good-girl, Neji-doesn't-want-to-kill-her-anymore scene. ^^; Sigh.

I'm wondering why nobody's pointed out the recent studies that are finding first-cousins far away enough from each other on genetic branchings for a common-risk level of retardation. ^^; It's really looking not-that-bad. It's more a matter of cultural tabboo, not medical risk.

[rianax.livejournal.com]

Exactly.

People stick to first impressions and ignore all character development.

Sakura disliked Naruto in the beginning so obviously years down the road, she still is going to be spiteful towards him-- never mind, they actual have become close friends and teammates.

And the studies show only about a 2% higher risk in cousins, and that is a pretty stupid agrument given the Hyuga have commited centuries of selective breeding.

[peridots13.livejournal.com]

Actually, I like NejiHina much more than ItaSasu. I <3 the Uchiha brothers, but only as brothers. Their relationship is so cute, cuz you can see that Itachi really does love Sasuke, even though they're both really big bastards right now.

NejiHina: I don't actively support it, but I'm not against it. It's kind of cute. I think I like them more as just cousins though, with Neji being really protective. A bit wary of incenst here at all times.

Still, NejiHina over ItaSasu!

[lunarwhirl.livejournal.com]

The answer to your question is because it IS "eww, incest."
Neji is from the BRANCH family, which is counted as inferior. Hinata is from the MAIN fmily, but she's considered wortheless. Why would they bother pairing the two when in the past, Neji HATED Hinata and even tried to kill her? That may have changed now, but I don't see the relationship between the two improving much. Yes, marrying between family is an option, but I'd think it would be more of a distant relative thing (because we all know the birth defects that come with inbreeding). At the least, second cousins or something.

[rianax.livejournal.com]

/The answer to your question is because it IS "eww, incest."/

According to you cultural morals, first cousin marriage is legal and common in Japan and Asia and in half the States. As well as being the most historical pattern of marriage in the world.

/Neji is from the BRANCH family, which is counted as inferior. Hinata is from the MAIN fmily, but she's considered wortheless./

Better to trade up and get the genius while keeping the line of succession intact.

/Why would they bother pairing the two when in the past, Neji HATED Hinata and even tried to kill her?/

Emotional bearing is so important in arranged marriages.

Neji despised Hinata because of his entire daddy-died-fatalistic outlook. He was gifted and called a genius, but could do nothing about his fate as a Branch house member. Hinata is weaker than him, but still could lie him flat out because of the Cursed Seal. Fate sucked and Neji took his free floating resentment against his family and transfered it on to Hinata who was as trapped as he was.

Neji did not hate Hinata, he hated what she represented.

In the Chuunin Exam the risk of injury and death is real, it has to be in order to weed out the worthy. Neji told Hinata to backdown and that he would not play around several times. Neji was an asshole but an honorable until Hinata called him on his own pain and suffering. Then he did try to kill her.

Then Naruto beats some sense into him. Neji learns the truth and Hinata and him seem to be having a friendly relationship.

/Yes, marrying between family is an option, but I'd think it would be more of a distant relative thing (because we all know the birth defects that come with inbreeding). At the least, second cousins or something./

Historically 80% of marriages were between first cousins, 20% of marriages world wide today are between first cousins, cousins marrying carries only a 2% higher risk than other couples, inbreeding causes birth defects because recessive genes manifest more frequently, the matter of cousins marrying is less scientific and more cultural like the censure against pork for Muslims, and not understanding that and the differences in other cultures is what I mean by enthnocentricity.

[andrew-jp.livejournal.com]

Also, NaruHina, KibaHina, NejiTen, and a plethora of yaoi Neji pairings are more popular, and the incest just gives their fans another reason to decry NejiHina.

[rejectedstalker.livejournal.com]

hyugacest has more members than kibahina and naruhina combined. Which I'm sure isn't proportionate to the whole fandom, and NaruHina is definitely one of the most popular pairings in the fandom, but overall, NejiHina seems more popular than KibaHina or ShinoHina. And I don't think the Neji yaoi or NejiTen individually are as popular as the Neji incest(maybe combined).