Jiraiya v. Orochimaru
Sep. 20th, 2005 07:33 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
melvilles-whale.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
chuunin_archiveLet's see, Orochimaru openly admits that Itachi is stronger than himself, which is why he has given up on possessing Itachi's body. And Itachi openly admits that Jiraiya is clearly stronger than himself---when he tells Kisame that if the two were to take Jiraiya head on in a battle to the death, they would both get killed no matter what (the best and luckiest scenario being that Jiraiya also dies). Itachi also adds that even if he and Kisame had more men with them, the result would be the same. And we see that Itachi is the one who is running away (for his life) from Jiraiya when Jiraiya summons the frog esophagus to consume him and Kisame.
OK, so if Jiraiya > Itachi and Itachi > Orochimaru, then isn't it logical that Jiraiya >> Orochimaru? Yet when Jiraiya and Orochimaru then fight each other in the 90s episodes, it doesn't quite seem that way. Both were handicapped...did the poison really handicap Jiraiya that much more than the Third's sealing technique handicapped Orochimaru (which is ironic...a petty trick from Tsunade has more impact than a legendary technique used by the Fourth to capture Kyuubi). Because if both were handicapped equally, then Jiraiya should win if the preceding logic holds, no?
What is my pea-sized brain missing?
OK, so if Jiraiya > Itachi and Itachi > Orochimaru, then isn't it logical that Jiraiya >> Orochimaru? Yet when Jiraiya and Orochimaru then fight each other in the 90s episodes, it doesn't quite seem that way. Both were handicapped...did the poison really handicap Jiraiya that much more than the Third's sealing technique handicapped Orochimaru (which is ironic...a petty trick from Tsunade has more impact than a legendary technique used by the Fourth to capture Kyuubi). Because if both were handicapped equally, then Jiraiya should win if the preceding logic holds, no?
What is my pea-sized brain missing?
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 12:00 am (UTC)LOOP-HOLE!
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 12:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 12:06 am (UTC)Anyway...yeah. You're quite perceptive. It's just one of the many holes in Kishimoto's logical reasoning.
Wah...I feel like fangirling Jiraiya and his greatness.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 12:07 am (UTC)There are more factors than the so-called petty poisoning and the sealing of Orochimaru's arms. >.>;
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 12:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 12:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 12:29 am (UTC)yet somehow, slipping a powerful drug into someone's drink when they're not looking and saving the village from a huge, terrible monster fox using a sealing technique that took the life of the user do not quite register on the same level imho. but yes, that drug was quite something.
btw, just for the record, i like tsunade. she's sexy, strong, and able to overcome her initial fears. hell, i was actually even more impressed when she was taking all those hits and gashes while protecting Naruto than i was when she was punching the crap out of Oro (which was also impressive).
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 01:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 12:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 04:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 04:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 12:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 02:02 pm (UTC)The frog>slug, slug>frog would cancel itself out...
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 02:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 02:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 11:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 04:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 12:23 am (UTC)1. Itachi is not someone who underestimates his opponents; thus, possibly encouraging the fact that Jiraiya was stronger then he seemed
2. Itachi knew he was weak when encountering Jiraiya.
The way I see it, Orochimaru is a somewhat good deal better then Jiraiya. Itachi is leaps and bounds tougher then both of them. However, Itachi's powers are quite limited. On a solely 1-on-1 battle, Itachi could defeat any person of the Naruto roster, save the leader of Akatsuki (of course, this is just a heavy assumption). When having to deal with more people (using more energy), Itachi may not prevail as easily.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 12:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 05:39 am (UTC)What does that mean to me?
I dare to guess Itachi's membership is the reason Orochimaru left Akatsuki.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 02:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 01:01 am (UTC)Which makes me wonder how in the world Itachi was able to defeat his entire clan in one night. Considering his obvious limitations, the accomplishment of such a feat is mind-boggling, assuming that he completed the task alone.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 01:26 am (UTC)Keeping that in mind, Itachi seems quite capable. Although i could imagine some difficulty with other jounin and what not.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 12:30 am (UTC)For instance, it is clear that the performer of the... Fushigi no Jutsu(?)... Orochimaru's immortality technique would have to have a stronger will than the body he is possessing, and also be more skilled in hypnotic and illusionary techniques. I think the resolve to kill his entire clan to test a theory and the fact that he has the Mangekyou Sharingan eliminates Itachi from either vulnerabilities.
Also, there are just generally different styles of fighting and different things to be scared of. For instance, Jiraiya would probably be good at taking out a whole group of people in a battle at once. We've seen it at least suggested in the animé flashbacks that Orochimaru is more skilled one-on-one than Jiraiya, but he might not be as good against multiple opponents in hand-to-hand combat. He is however, excellent at plotting to make the circumstance turn to his advantage.
You also remind me of a Japanese saying. Or maybe it was a game. Anyway, you know how Tsunade is represented by the Slug, Orochimaru by the Snake, and Jiraiya by the Frog? There's a thing that's like Rock-Paper-Scissors in Japan. The Snake is scared of the Slug is scared of the Frog is scared of the Snake. All have their reasons for being afraid of the one but not the other. Do you see what I'm getting at?
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 12:42 am (UTC)Not necessarily. Considering the different styles of fighting and the range of attacks demonstrated throughout the series, the question of whether Character A will win a fight against Character B depends on the strengths and weaknesses of the characters' abilities.
For instance, when Kakashi first fought Itachi, he was beaten relatively easily. However, a taijutsu user such as Gai would make for a rather difficult opponent for Itachi, considering that Itachi heavily relies on genjutsu. Yet, that certainly does not imply that Gai could easily defeat Kakashi.
Same goes for Itachi, Jiraiya, and Orochimaru.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 01:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 12:50 am (UTC)I cannot believe for a second that Akatsuki could not beat Jiraiya together. I would accept that any one on one battle could go either way. I would accept that even a duel could be touch and go.
But I would not accept that he could beat them all, because that would be more pathetic cheese in one character than would be acceptable and would lessen Jiraiya into a boring character, like Naruto himself (in battle terms, characters who can never lose are deadly dull) and it would lessen the threat of Akatsuki.
I believe the sannin to all be on an equal level. They were all 'handicapped' in that battle - Orochi and Jiraiya physically and Tsunade emotionally.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 01:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 01:37 am (UTC)But then again, since it's Naruto and this is Kishimoto writing it, probably plothole. Or even just said for like, the effect of saying something. Or maybe it just depends on strengths and weaknesses so matchups could vary. Durrrrr there are lots of possibilities and I shouldn't think too much.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 01:37 am (UTC)Considering it wasn't an even match and that neither could do well in a fight at the moment. you can't really say they were weakened equally.. in taijutsu it's safe to say that jiraiya would probably have an upper hand considering oro is without his arms.
Itachi feared Jiraiya to this is important.. if Orochimaru thinks itachi is stronger then him and jiraiya scares itachi in a normal match it would seem that Jiraiya would win with his greatness.
Notice how he works with his summon? and how oro just has his snake attack? Plus Jiraiya summons different toads depending on what he needs them for. He also has more chakra then naruto! Naruto has to half kill himself to bring out gambunta while Jiraiya doesn't seem to have a problem with it.
Personnaly i always thought that jiraiya was stronger. Seems to be the most powerful skilled ninja yet in the anime. Not knocking the Third or Fourth but from what we've seen in battle i could see jiraiya beat any foe.. though gaara does seem to puzzle me.. it might be difficult with him.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 05:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 06:30 am (UTC)Jiraiya beats naruto, naruto has to take all that chakra he can from the kyuubi to summon gambunta. Where as Jiraiya can summon gambunta still with plenty of reserve chakra to do fancy fire jutsu's with and so forth.
even though i said this above maybe i made it to confusing..
anyway Jiraiya wins :P
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 01:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 03:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 04:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 05:44 am (UTC)I'm so in love with Yondy. I shall have his children.
Although, Yondaime isn't stronger than Kyuubi... for what we know, Kyuubi is still alive and kicking and Yondy is not.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 03:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 04:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 04:18 am (UTC)correct me if i'm wrong.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 09:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-21 05:16 pm (UTC)On the Itachi note: he's much faster, but I'd bet Jiraiya's got way more chakra, better control of it, and has enough of a tactical advantage to put him in that "suicidal to fight" category. Itachi's loony, but not stupid, and besides, his greatest jutsus seem to eat up chakra like there's no tomorrow. He was probably pretty close to exhaustion by that point anyway.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-22 03:47 am (UTC)I think Kishimoto covered this in an interview, regarding Sannin at least
Date: 2005-09-29 01:50 am (UTC)