WHOAA, that's some heavy @$%& right there...

[infinitefirefly.livejournal.com]

Usually, I don't concern myself with the techniques/bloodlines in Naruto. They're cool and all, but I don't usually raise questions and theories about them.

HOWEVER, since I'm aiming for accuracy in a Itachi/Neji drabble I need to write for someone, I come bearing paradoxical questions about Byakugan and Mangekyou Sharingan.



Just to be sure, I checked some Naruto fansites and saw that Byakugan has the ability to look through solid objects/materials for great distances. So does this mean...that if Neji activated Byakugan and kept his eyes closed, he'd be able to see through his eyelids?

Then, I recalled the fight between Itachi and Kakashi and how Itachi lay the Mangekyou down on him through eye-contact. Then, as you all remember, hopefully, Gai said the only way to fight Itachi without getting Mangekyou'd is to avoid eye contact and instead follow the movement of his feet or whatever.

So my question here is:

If Neji can use Byakugan while keeping his eyes closed, could he take on Itachi without being susceptible to getting Mangekyou'd? I mean, if he can see with his eyes closed, he can both avoid eye contact AND fight in a more-or-less normal way, right?

EDIT: Also, even if Neji can see Itachi's eyes, I don't think the Mangekyou can be activated unless Itachi is able to see NEJI'S eyes in return, yes?

I'm not raising a debate as to who would win. I just want to know whether you think the theory is plausible. O__o

(Though, the idea of Neji fighting Itachi with his eyes closed is 10 million kinds of cool. ^o^)

So...discuss, please? ♥

Comments

[ninja-demongirl.livejournal.com]

I think it wouldnt work cause neji would still see itachis eyes.

[infinitefirefly.livejournal.com]

Yes, but ITACHI can't see NEJI'S eyes. O__o One would think it's the Mangekyou user who has to activate the eyes by looking into the opponent's.

[ninja-demongirl.livejournal.com]

Even so i think its the person who sees Itachis eyes that get caught. Itachi doesnt have to see you

[kidouche.livejournal.com]

Oh man...that's a tough one, Henna-chan. XD I'm not really sure...because, like you said, Itachi wouldn't be able to see Neji's eyes, and yet...there's the little factor that, if Neji can see Itachi, he still might be suseptible...if you know what I mean.

O.o Damn it. XD Now I'm going to be thinking about this the rest of the day, thanks ever so much.

[infinitefirefly.livejournal.com]

LMAO.

So sorry, Ashy-love! XDDD I can't help it! If I get puzzled over something, I ponder it and ponder until:

A. My brain turns to mush.
B. Results are inconclusive.
C. I come to a happy conclusion. ^o^

But you've gotta admit, if that were true and Neji was given a bit more time to develop and grow, that would be a fight to PWN all fights. *_____*

*loves*

[nasouiishimata.livejournal.com]

Wow, I really have to think on this one. Perhaps Mangekyou is based on hypnoses like the other forms of Sharingan? If so, then Neji would still be susceptible because he is seeing the hypnoses . . .

[infinitefirefly.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, perhaps. But then, as all techniques have weaknesses...maybe Mangekyou's is that it can't be activated unless there is direct open eye-contact?

But the hypnosis idea is plausible too...damn. This just got more complicated. XDD

Thanks for the input~

[typecast.livejournal.com]

That's a very interesting theory. ^_^

I want to say no, because I think that by eye-contact, they don't mean it literally. I assume it's more like the optics that connect to your brain and scientific mumbo jumbo like that. So even if Neji had his eyes closed, if he looked at Itachi's eyes while he had the Mangekyou activated, it would still affect him because he's still using his vision.

Though yes, Neji fighting Itachi with his eyes closed would be incredibly awesome. XD

[infinitefirefly.livejournal.com]

Gahhh, I think I've decided. I'm going to give the fight scene the boot in the drabble. XD It's obvious that there's no solid conclusion in sight, so I'll just improvise. ^o^

I like to think that every technique has a weakness (besides being chakra-depleting), and I think the Byakugan (since it's genetically connected to the Sharingan) would be the prime technique/bloodline to exploit Mangekyou's weakness, if it has one. Because I doubt anyone other than Gai can take on Itachi by solely focusing on his feet. XD

Oh GOD, what a fight that would be~ *swoons*

Thank you for your input! ♥

[typecast.livejournal.com]

...and I think the Byakugan (since it's genetically connected to the Sharingan) would be the prime technique/bloodline to exploit Mangekyou's weakness, if it has one.

I totally agree. But I can't pick out a weakness in Mangekyou that could be logically proven. *hates logic* XD

Good luck with the drabble. You'll let us all see it right? ^^

[infinitefirefly.livejournal.com]

*shakes fist at logic and the epitome of ambiguity that is Mangekyou*

XD Thanks! And yes, I shall post it for you all when I finish~ ^o^

[kylara.livejournal.com]

I've heard these arguments before, and the jury is hung -- none of fandom will ever agree. We just don't know enough about the Sharingan or Byakugan for any argument to push over the other side.

Personally, I think that if Neji can see Itachi's eyes, then he's screwed. At the battle at the river against Asuma, Kurenai, and Kakashi, Kakashi told the others to close their eyes or they would be killed. When I first saw it, my impression was that Itachi could do the mangekyou on the three of them at once -- that it was whoever looked into Itachi's eyes when it was going would be a victim to the technique. If that's the case, then since he can't have eye-contact with everyone at once, then it only needs to be one way. Also, if Itachi only needed to see the potential victims' eyes for it to work, then looking away wouldn't do the trick to stop it -- they need to be looking at him. That is, of course, just my observation, and plenty of people will both agree and disagree on it, as these battledome debates tend to go.

But this also depends on how Neji "sees" with his Byakugan. Does he "see" normally? (Or normally enough?) Genjutsu is done by taking control of the victim's chakra flow, and Itachi is able to do that through eye-contact, but we don't know how Neji "sees" with Byakugan and whether or not it would work.

Though I personally think Neji would be susceptible because he "sees" with his chakra, and genjutsu is the control of chakra. It could be like handing Itachi the reigns. That's just the idea I favor. *shrugs*

Pretty much, whatever you decide for your story is entirely plausible either way.

And the idea of Neji fighting Itachi with his eyes closed is definitely 10 million kinds of cool. XD Good luck on it.

[infinitefirefly.livejournal.com]

Oh wow. O_O Thank you for posting such an extensive comment; my doubts are settled. ^o^

Though I personally think Neji would be susceptible because he "sees" with his chakra, and genjutsu is the control of chakra. It could be like handing Itachi the reigns.

That's an extremely good point. But you're also correct for saying that we don't know enough about either Byakugan or Sharingan to form a solid conclusion to the question.

Also, I let out a dorky giggle of glee when I saw how you questioned Neji's sight through Byakugan, because I was wondering the same thing. ^o^ When I look back on the 2nd part of the Chunnin exam, I remember how weird and black/white Neji's vision was when he looked through the guy's body.

Perhaps I could warp that in Neji's favour in face of Mangekyou, or against it, since you said Genjutsu is based on chakra and Neji could be tying his own noose if he tried something like that against Itachi.

@___@ Man, this is so totally why I avoid writing fight scenes. XD

Thank you so much for your input. ♥

[kylara.livejournal.com]

Sorry, got kind of sidetracked posting all over your thread here. I guess I get pretty involved in these types of discussions. But I think I'm getting tired. XD Maybe I'll jump back into things later.

Glad I could be of some help. Warp it however you please, you can definitely make this work. <3

[kemu33.livejournal.com]

Is anyone else forgetting that Gai managed to fight Itachi while looking at his reflection in the water? Sure, he managed to do this without looking at the Itachi-reflection's eyes, but still. I say go for it! It's a great loophole, and I hope you post it here when you're done with the drabble!

[kemu33.livejournal.com]

"sure he might have managed". I actually haven't read that for a while, and don't feel like going back, but you could check.

[infinitefirefly.livejournal.com]

KYA HA HA! ♥ Thank you! ^______^

I am one to exloit loopholes to their max, so your encouragement means a lot. ^o^ Besides, I, for once, would like to have someone get the upper hand over Itachi, if even for a nanosecond. XD

And HAI, I shall post the drabble for all to read when I finish. ^o^

[kemu33.livejournal.com]

Your welcome! I actually was piqued enough to go and check, and while Gai says for Asuma and Kurenai to focus on Itachi's feet in the reflection, you can also find other loopholes, such as:
The Byakugan sees chakra, not 'real' vision, so his way of seeing might distort whatever genjutsu Itachi is trying to throw at him with his eyes. In this way he wouldn't even have to close his eyes to avoid getting caught. Geeze. Now I'm really contemplating this seriously! I'll be on it all day...

[kylara.livejournal.com]

Though the Byakugan does see chakra, it can also see other things that don't have chakra -- trees, seals, wooden posts, kunai, inanimate objects, and just stuff. Things that normal sight would pick up. A doujutsu technique could plainly fall into that category.

The question isn't whether or not Neji could see the chakra Itachi uses in his Sharingan, or see the Mangekyou Sharingan take form. The question is whether or not Itachi would be capable of manipulating Neji's chakra to form the genjutsu Tsukuyomi despite the lack of "normal" eye-contact.

>> In this way he wouldn't even have to close his eyes to avoid getting caught.

I disagree. If Neji looks at Itachi with eyes open, even with Byakugan on, he'd be caught in the doujutsu. Even if Byakugan can see through genjutsu, which we don't entirely know if it can especially in the case of doujutsu, Tsukuyomi is instantaneous while Byakugan works in "real time" and I think that makes a difference since Neji wouldn't have time to fight it. He'd need to close his eyes, and then the questionable variables apply, and may work in his favor.

[infinitefirefly.livejournal.com]

Maaa, then you're right. Establishing an answer to whether or not Neji would be able to avoid Mangekyou by closing his eyes has to be left up to interpretation/preference. XD

But I have to commend you on your knowledge and insight. ^o^ Your comments have helped greatly.

[kylara.livejournal.com]

Gai didn't look at Itachi's a reflection, he looked at his feet. It's a big difference, since a reflection would be a completely different variable.

[secludedly.livejournal.com]

Byakugan doesn't see through things. It see's the chakra within things, along with being able to capture reflective lightsources about 355 degree's around(In Neji's case instead of 360). If anything, Mangekyou Sharingan would probably hit Neji the absolute worse since Itachi's doujutsu is the hypnotic paralysis of the electrodes in the brain where through chakra he can manipulate the pattern of it's flow, creating Genjutsu such as Kakashi jesus on a cross lol. Byakugan would be basically handed over to Itachi like it was nothing, even though Kakashi claims Byakugan is an evolved, superior form of Sharingan, which I disagree with. Oh, and by the way... Mangekyou Sharingan only actives hypnosis in the individual who looks into the eyes. Itachi can be looking to the side, smoking a stogie, just chillin'... and someone like Asuma AND Kurenai can look at the Sharingan and be instantly trapped in Genjutsu.

[kylara.livejournal.com]

>> Byakugan is an evolved, superior form of Sharingan

I thought Sharingan branched off of Byakugan? Which would make Byakugan the original, and Sharingan the evolved. I don't know about a superior form either way.

[secludedly.livejournal.com]

Nah', it's actually Sharingan first. I don't like that idea. If I could remember, I'd quote Kakashi.

[aruja.livejournal.com]

"Sharingan is the blood inheritance limit of the Uchiha Clan. The Uchiha are said to be descendants of the Hyuuga, with the Byakugan changing into the Sharingan over time."

quote from leafninja.com

it WAS the Byakugan that came first.

[secludedly.livejournal.com]

I think I can be wrong, too though... so I'm gonna find out later, but I swore it was the other way around.

[aruja.livejournal.com]

I believe that it was the Byakugan that was first and that the Sharingan was in a way "parented" by it. sure the Sharingan has almost completely different attributes but its clear the in a normal capacity (ie not mangekyou) the Sharingan is far outshined by its predesessor. I like to think of it as a parent-child thing... I child only gets half of the genes of one parent, but when the child works really really hard they can attain the level of or close to the level of their parent. (ie Mangekyou)

I hope thats coherent... I'm not entirely the best at pushing thoughts onto paper clearly.

[infinitefirefly.livejournal.com]

Good point, regarding the "parent/child" aspect. ^o^

Loopholes = GOOD. MUCH GOOD. For fanfiction writers, at least. XD

PFFT. I find it hilarious every time I see how many things can change with the Sharingan. You begin with a Sharingan with one dot, then as you slowly master it, the other two appear. THEN you find out that you can get a higher/better form of Sharingan by killing your best friend. Then KAKASHI develops a head-imploding kind of Sharingan through some mysterious means.

...

Itachi to Neji: You think you know all the secrets of the Uchiha clan?

Neji: ...I think so. *ticks off fingers* 1-3 dot Sharingans...Mangekyou Sharingans...head-imploding Mangekyou Sharingans...

Itachi: You've forgotten the latest form of Sharingan.

Neji: Oh? What's that?

Itachi: High-energy Mangekyou Sharingan! *shoots laser beams out of his eyes that pulverize boulders*

[infinitefirefly.livejournal.com]

Byakugan doesn't see through things.

Oh yes it does~ (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/firefly181/pics/Naruto41-16.jpg)

I don't see how one can disagree with a character in the manga/anime giving credible info about the Byakugan. Especially since Kakashi HAS the Sharingan, and knows what it lacks in comparison to the Byakugan. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but if Kakashi, a Sharingan-user himself, says Byakugan is "superior" in some aspects, I'll definitely take his word for it. ^o^

[nikki-wright.livejournal.com]

And we're also forgetting [though, many people have probably given up on this].. but in the latest episode of Naruto, they're supposed to find this treasure box. Naruto points at this box and goes, "..Is that it?!"

Hinata activates her Byakugan to see through the box, sees that it's empty and goes, "It appears empty..."

They take it home anyway, fight these guys and then Tsunade finds out that the box actually contains a bill for the mission. >D;

---

You know what I've always wondered? If Sasuke and Hinata had a child.. how powerful would it be? o.o; [Sasuke should totally be with Ino, though.]

[infinitefirefly.livejournal.com]

Filler eps, despite aiding in the argument, don't quite count because they aren't based on the manga and not actually spawned by Kishimoto's creativity. XD

But still, even though Hinata said it appeared empty, she then commented almost immediately after that it had some sort of paper in it.

Sasuke and Hinata's child?? XD Oh God, Gr. 12 biology is coming back to me. I think their children would have either the Sharingan OR Byakugan alternatively, depending on which gene is the recessive and which is the dominant. ^o^

Sasuke should totally remain as asexual as ever. XD

[doomsdayblaze.livejournal.com]

Counter-arugment:

As long as Neji can see Itachi's eyes, he'll be trapped in the genjutsu. My argument?

Itachi was able to trap Naruto in a genjutsu using his FINGER. Thus, it has less to do with Itachi being able to see his opponent's eyes, and more upon what his opponent's eyes can SEE.

End case.

[sitiomania.livejournal.com]

I don't have any real scientific output, but if Neji could fight Itachi using Byakugan, couldn't Hinata's dad? Neji fighting Itachi with his eyes closed would be awsome, but his uncle randomly appearing to save people from Itachi with his eyes closed would pwn me so hard. xD
No matter who won, that would be cool. And now I want to draw lazer-eyes!Itachi. <-<;