I have a hot button question to ask.

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

I've been wanting to ask this question for so long but I've always been unsure of how I should go about phrasing it. I'm a little nervous but here it goes. My hope is that just as many men as women answer because this is really a question about gender perception, I suppose. I also want people to know that this isn't a question of if you support homosexuality or not, but be warned that this question does have to do with homosexuality. I am also using as the popular pairing of NaruSasu/SasuNaru as prime example, however the question is not limited to just that pairing. Be kind I am really just taking a plunge and even now I am unsure if I phrased this correctly. I really hope this stays on topic. Also I am aware that real couples don't break down like that (seme/uke) but this is more of a question about people themselves, and gender identity.

My question is that when presented with the question of who in a relationship (such as Naruto's and Sasuke's) do you is the dominate partner in a relationship-even if you don't support the pairing or homosexuality. I think that the most popular answer would for the most part divide along gender lines? I theorize (but again I have no real proof) that a man would be more apt to put Naruto in the dominate role rather than Sasuke. However I believe that for the most part women would place Sasuke in the dominate role. This is not to say that they're isn't any one who does just the opposite. I have no real raltonalization as to why I think this might be true since I am not a expert in such a subject but I would be up to hear theories.

*edit* I think that a man would for the most part relate more to Naruto and so there for put Naruto in a dominate role, however I think women would empathize or relate better to Sasuke so they might be more inclined to put him in the dominate role.

*edit again* I know real homosexual realtionships are more equal than the uke/seme dynamic. Thats not quite the question. The real question is why does the fandom have a tendency to portray things in dominate/submissive terms and why is it done mostly by women? How would this be treated differently if it were say a man writing a fanfic or doujinshi? Does gender play a part in such a thing? I would really rather people stop the "they'll be equals" comments I know that real realitonships transcend that.

I know some one might get pissed but http://www.aestheticism.com/visitors/editor/index.htm kind of covers this topic. Most of my questions kind of spawned from here.

http://www.discarnate.com/boysnextdoor/reviews/misc/mechanicallemon.html Also a rant from someone else discussing the mechanics of sex and how most people don't write it well.

Both articles are not mine.

Comments

[jbmcdragon.livejournal.com]

*laughs* Well, I think it depends on how the characters are portrayed. I'd be more likely to put Naruto in the dominant role, but that's because I can't see them doing anything until Sasuke finishes his quest bit and comes back to Konoha, at which point I see him as a broken sort of person and broken people don't tend to be dominant.

On the other hand, if you put them together while Sasuke is with Orochimaru still, then I'd see Sasuke as dominant because he's still in power-hungry mode.

And I'm female, btw. ;)

J

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

I would go by how the characters are portrayed in the anime rather than an fanfic or doujinshi. Personally Sasuke and Naruto are both more or less the same. Even their height isn't as exaggerated as fan persepstions go. That's why I like this pair as a prime example because they are practically on equal footing. I think Naruto has even saved Sasuke on just as many if not more times.

[aruja.livejournal.com]

when talking about Naruto and Sasuke I tend to agree with the above answer but its really not just about the more efeminate, or events, or even the character's wishes.
my best example is my OTP Naruto/Gaara
I would generally always count Naruto as the seme in the realtionship because Gaara has quite a few things that would deter him brom being that himself. he has likely never been taught about any kinds of relationships with anyone because of the hateful way he was raised, and also this would make him rarely if ever have touched people other than family and so he really wouldn't have the initiative to be the top... from studies someone who is neglected never touched or loved tend to shy away and/or pull back from any touch...

I really didn't mean to ramble about that but I was trying to say that I think it isn't black and white... its definately needs to go on a character by character basis.

oh I'm a girl too

~ame

[fatesong.livejournal.com]

I'm not going to post a long answer like everyone else.

I love SasuNaru.
I hate NaruSasu.
I'm a girl.

And yeah.

[meriness.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I think a lot of people don't think of it as whose best suited for top. Like, all my guy friends would say it depends. All my female friends say the same. I don't mind SasuNaru or NaruSasu simply because a great pairing like them is fantastic because they are reversible. (They sound like reversible undies XD)

So, looking at it from a gender role perspective doesn't really work, because everyone has different views on gender and when placing these constraints on a homo pairing it should, basically, erase these ideas.. Because neither of them is weaker than the other, it's really fair game. I think this pairing is so popular because of that. Most other BL pairs have a defined seme/uke relationship.

[kitsukikun.livejournal.com]

What is your rationale that guys would want Naruto on top? He definately has a lot of feminizing characteristics as far as anime characters go... though Sasuke is more the bishounen...
Men tend to be a lot more gender rigid then women, and a little more heterosexist with heteronormative ideals... I wonder if men would be more likely to buy into the butch/femme ideology, though women totally buy into that shit, too.

Regardless, I dislike horribly onesided pairings either way. I lean towards Naruto going on top, (perhaps because I like it when he's one up on Sasuke) but that's still buying into the penetrator/penetrated power dichotomy, by even having a slight preference. =(
I'm female by the way.

[distainful-baka.livejournal.com]

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

I think that men would see Naruto and equate him to more of a guy-kinda-guy. You know almost borderline jock-ish while most men would probably view Sasuke as more whiney and there for more feminie. I can see that because on most forums most Sasuke hate threads are littered with guys say " he is so whiney and gay!" That's more or less the basis for this theory.

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

Yes I know that real homosexual couples are not stuck on those type of dynamics but I want to know why do most men and women cling to them.

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

But its the psychobabble I'm after!

[jbmcdragon.livejournal.com]

But see, that's partly what I'm saying. In the anime--er, he's with Orochimaru. Okay, in the manga, we've now seen him again and I'd make him dominant if they were to have sex *right now.* Obviously, I can only conjecture what I think he'd be like by the time he returned to Konoha, and we're back to 'broken.' I didn't mean fanfic by what everyone else is writing--I meant fanfic by what I would write, based off the closest take of the characters I can glean from the manga/anime. ;)

JB

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

This isn't so much as a question of them but more of a question of you!

[fujiappletan.livejournal.com]

*shrugs* I'm female and I prefer NaruSasu. Is this what you're going at? @.@

But then; I may just be thinking on manly-terms. Some people don't even believe in the Seme/Uke system...

[jbmcdragon.livejournal.com]

*laughs* What you seem to be getting here is that most *female yaoi writers* don't seem to cling to them like you're trying to get at--most seem to come down to "it depends" --on character takes, situations, etc. *grins* Woot! Go us, being all unrigid. ;-D

J

[jbmcdragon.livejournal.com]

Ah, I love this response. :D

J

[aradiantsun.livejournal.com]

I'm not a shounen-ai or yaoi fan, which might be shocking as I'm a female, but since I have to say that I don't like judging seme and uke based on gender, i.e. the guy always being seme. For me it really depends on who pursues whom, but isn't neccessarily more dominant than the other. Does that make sense? I 'ship SasuSaku, but I love it when Sakura tops, because she's the one that pursues Sasuke. Not to say that seme!Sasuke bothers, me, it's just that I see them both having "equal" time on top. And as far as the Shikamaru and Temari pairing is concerned, I see Temari being seme more often than Shikamaru, simply because of Shikamaru's dispostition.

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

makes sense. However that brings more questions.

[aradiantsun.livejournal.com]

I'd be happy to try and to explain further if you want to ask...

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

Okay, the aggressive personality dominates the submisive. Regardless of gender, the aggressor is the one who iniciates intercourse(?). That in it's self that you equate (on some subconcise level) the seme/aggressor sentiment is where this is going. Can there be a submissive akward seme (does that even makes sense!) Can there be a aggressive uke? I getting loss in my own theroies!
I'm being very general here so sorry if it feels like I'm attacking you.

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

Furthermore my spelling has turned to shit!

[maldaeien.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm, let's think about it.
First of all I'm a girl who has consumed yaoi since the age of 14 (internet allowed me to search for it even with an adult content protection, it seems graphic novels do not count for those programs).
Anyways, going back to the topic I must say that even if I find attractive two men kissing like some men find attractive two women kissing, I don't believe it's a factor that influences my answer: Anyone, in an homosexual or heterosexual couple, can be the one who performs the dominate role and is not related to penetration. I think it goes for who leads the sexual intercourse (even if that person is the one who is "in the receiving end" :P sorry, could not help but to laugh at that comment when someone tried to explain me what yaoi was), more a mood thing :P People tends to guide their lives with the uke/seme concept even if not liking homosexual couples: "All what is cute, incredibly attractive, cheerful and happy is girly, therefore uke = woman = submisive. All what is serious, handsome, has presence and not a defined emotion is manly, therefore seme = man = dominates". It's that stupid thing of women are emotional and men are analytical. People just don't know that both concepts blend in really interesting ways in life.
Well, that was for life sort of stuff.
For fiction it has no logical reason of being :P Canon, Crack, OTP, etc. It is purely related to the author/fan's tastes and my icon proves it. GetBackers fandom: The short haired brunette man is always paired with the long haired brunette man (yes, he is a boy! *gasps*) but for a reason or another, in a moment of stupidity, with a friend, we decided to pair him with the blonde haired man for pure amusement reasons. That's why I like them together more than the original couple (I have read the author has made those two an oficial homosexual pairing <3) but it has no logical explanation of why I chose them to be together (though in Japanese fandom they can give you a telephone guide sized book with all the reasons of why they must be together :P).
The reasons might change from a person to another or might not even exist but all resumes to the author/fan's tastes :P
Hope I was able to help :D
*huggles*

Maldy

[aradiantsun.livejournal.com]

Well, I understand that the aggressive generally means uke. BUt if you look at Sasuke's relationship with Sakura, he tends to be passive with her. Brushing her off for dates, telling her she's annoying and stuff. Sakura consistantly takes the dominant role in their relationship in trying to get Sasuke to go out with her, etc. There have been a few occassions where Sasuke has jumped in and protected her, and (call me a delusional fangirl) I like to think that after Sasuke tells her Naruto is the one responsible for saving her from Shuukaku that he seems to be jealous. All in all though, I see Sasuke as trying to hide his emotions for the most part, even if that means holding back during foreplay and sometimes extending into sex. I do think that he'd be the seme often enough, not necessarily because he'd be the aggressor, but because I tend to think that Sasuke wouldn't see sex as something pleasureable, that he'd see it as fulfilling his duty. It's a task for him, so he doesn't have to feel while doing it, therefore not really being an aggressor. Does that make sense?

Btw, I think this is a good question/topic. It's nice reading what others think, especially since I seem to be the only non shounen-ai and yaoi fan in this discussion so far.

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

Yes but there must be a reason that most girl's prefer to portray there Ukes and Semes in such sterotypical ways. Most yaoi suspends reality and in the end they make a story of a heterosexual couple (with defined heterosexual dynamics) except that the couple is actually two guys. Heck both guys end up being essentially two girls who are disguised as guys! Clearly something Freud should investigate is going on.

[maldaeien.livejournal.com]

Why is it shocking that being you female you don't like yaoi or shounen-ai? I mean, not for being a girl you must love, worship the ground a yaoi mangaka walks on and take caption of every possible Sasu X Naru / Naru X Sasu moment. Same goes for boys, they don't have to actually be in love and droolover girls kissing each other. It is a silly stereotype you don't have to pay attention to like the one that says that if you don't worship the ground the yaoi/yuri mangaka walks on you are officially the most homophic person of the world. It's just silly.
*huggles*

Maldy

[aradiantsun.livejournal.com]

Eh, well I guess since the majority of the female fans of this series (and let's face it, a vast amount of all shounen series) are shounen-ai/yaoi fans it's a surprise to see one that isn't. I don't have any real problems with shounen/shoujo-ai and yaoi/yuri pairings in general, but when the majority of the fans of a series favor them over het pairings it can be surprising to stumble across someone who prefers het.

My brain is starting to shut down so if this doesn't make sense I'm sorry.