I have a hot button question to ask.

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

I've been wanting to ask this question for so long but I've always been unsure of how I should go about phrasing it. I'm a little nervous but here it goes. My hope is that just as many men as women answer because this is really a question about gender perception, I suppose. I also want people to know that this isn't a question of if you support homosexuality or not, but be warned that this question does have to do with homosexuality. I am also using as the popular pairing of NaruSasu/SasuNaru as prime example, however the question is not limited to just that pairing. Be kind I am really just taking a plunge and even now I am unsure if I phrased this correctly. I really hope this stays on topic. Also I am aware that real couples don't break down like that (seme/uke) but this is more of a question about people themselves, and gender identity.

My question is that when presented with the question of who in a relationship (such as Naruto's and Sasuke's) do you is the dominate partner in a relationship-even if you don't support the pairing or homosexuality. I think that the most popular answer would for the most part divide along gender lines? I theorize (but again I have no real proof) that a man would be more apt to put Naruto in the dominate role rather than Sasuke. However I believe that for the most part women would place Sasuke in the dominate role. This is not to say that they're isn't any one who does just the opposite. I have no real raltonalization as to why I think this might be true since I am not a expert in such a subject but I would be up to hear theories.

*edit* I think that a man would for the most part relate more to Naruto and so there for put Naruto in a dominate role, however I think women would empathize or relate better to Sasuke so they might be more inclined to put him in the dominate role.

*edit again* I know real homosexual realtionships are more equal than the uke/seme dynamic. Thats not quite the question. The real question is why does the fandom have a tendency to portray things in dominate/submissive terms and why is it done mostly by women? How would this be treated differently if it were say a man writing a fanfic or doujinshi? Does gender play a part in such a thing? I would really rather people stop the "they'll be equals" comments I know that real realitonships transcend that.

I know some one might get pissed but http://www.aestheticism.com/visitors/editor/index.htm kind of covers this topic. Most of my questions kind of spawned from here.

http://www.discarnate.com/boysnextdoor/reviews/misc/mechanicallemon.html Also a rant from someone else discussing the mechanics of sex and how most people don't write it well.

Both articles are not mine.

Comments

[jbmcdragon.livejournal.com]

*laughs* Well, I think it depends on how the characters are portrayed. I'd be more likely to put Naruto in the dominant role, but that's because I can't see them doing anything until Sasuke finishes his quest bit and comes back to Konoha, at which point I see him as a broken sort of person and broken people don't tend to be dominant.

On the other hand, if you put them together while Sasuke is with Orochimaru still, then I'd see Sasuke as dominant because he's still in power-hungry mode.

And I'm female, btw. ;)

J

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

I would go by how the characters are portrayed in the anime rather than an fanfic or doujinshi. Personally Sasuke and Naruto are both more or less the same. Even their height isn't as exaggerated as fan persepstions go. That's why I like this pair as a prime example because they are practically on equal footing. I think Naruto has even saved Sasuke on just as many if not more times.

[jbmcdragon.livejournal.com]

But see, that's partly what I'm saying. In the anime--er, he's with Orochimaru. Okay, in the manga, we've now seen him again and I'd make him dominant if they were to have sex *right now.* Obviously, I can only conjecture what I think he'd be like by the time he returned to Konoha, and we're back to 'broken.' I didn't mean fanfic by what everyone else is writing--I meant fanfic by what I would write, based off the closest take of the characters I can glean from the manga/anime. ;)

JB

[aruja.livejournal.com]

when talking about Naruto and Sasuke I tend to agree with the above answer but its really not just about the more efeminate, or events, or even the character's wishes.
my best example is my OTP Naruto/Gaara
I would generally always count Naruto as the seme in the realtionship because Gaara has quite a few things that would deter him brom being that himself. he has likely never been taught about any kinds of relationships with anyone because of the hateful way he was raised, and also this would make him rarely if ever have touched people other than family and so he really wouldn't have the initiative to be the top... from studies someone who is neglected never touched or loved tend to shy away and/or pull back from any touch...

I really didn't mean to ramble about that but I was trying to say that I think it isn't black and white... its definately needs to go on a character by character basis.

oh I'm a girl too

~ame

[fatesong.livejournal.com]

I'm not going to post a long answer like everyone else.

I love SasuNaru.
I hate NaruSasu.
I'm a girl.

And yeah.

[a-white-rain.livejournal.com]

Is there any reason why?

I really tend to dislike SasuNaru, and can't see it at all. Where I see NaruSasu everywhere.

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

Yes I know that real homosexual couples are not stuck on those type of dynamics but I want to know why do most men and women cling to them.

[meriness.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I think a lot of people don't think of it as whose best suited for top. Like, all my guy friends would say it depends. All my female friends say the same. I don't mind SasuNaru or NaruSasu simply because a great pairing like them is fantastic because they are reversible. (They sound like reversible undies XD)

So, looking at it from a gender role perspective doesn't really work, because everyone has different views on gender and when placing these constraints on a homo pairing it should, basically, erase these ideas.. Because neither of them is weaker than the other, it's really fair game. I think this pairing is so popular because of that. Most other BL pairs have a defined seme/uke relationship.

[kitsukikun.livejournal.com]

What is your rationale that guys would want Naruto on top? He definately has a lot of feminizing characteristics as far as anime characters go... though Sasuke is more the bishounen...
Men tend to be a lot more gender rigid then women, and a little more heterosexist with heteronormative ideals... I wonder if men would be more likely to buy into the butch/femme ideology, though women totally buy into that shit, too.

Regardless, I dislike horribly onesided pairings either way. I lean towards Naruto going on top, (perhaps because I like it when he's one up on Sasuke) but that's still buying into the penetrator/penetrated power dichotomy, by even having a slight preference. =(
I'm female by the way.

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

I think that men would see Naruto and equate him to more of a guy-kinda-guy. You know almost borderline jock-ish while most men would probably view Sasuke as more whiney and there for more feminie. I can see that because on most forums most Sasuke hate threads are littered with guys say " he is so whiney and gay!" That's more or less the basis for this theory.

[distainful-baka.livejournal.com]

[cephiedvariable.livejournal.com]

They'd fight to decide first, though. XD

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

But its the psychobabble I'm after!

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

This isn't so much as a question of them but more of a question of you!

[fujiappletan.livejournal.com]

*shrugs* I'm female and I prefer NaruSasu. Is this what you're going at? @.@

But then; I may just be thinking on manly-terms. Some people don't even believe in the Seme/Uke system...

[aradiantsun.livejournal.com]

I'm not a shounen-ai or yaoi fan, which might be shocking as I'm a female, but since I have to say that I don't like judging seme and uke based on gender, i.e. the guy always being seme. For me it really depends on who pursues whom, but isn't neccessarily more dominant than the other. Does that make sense? I 'ship SasuSaku, but I love it when Sakura tops, because she's the one that pursues Sasuke. Not to say that seme!Sasuke bothers, me, it's just that I see them both having "equal" time on top. And as far as the Shikamaru and Temari pairing is concerned, I see Temari being seme more often than Shikamaru, simply because of Shikamaru's dispostition.

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

makes sense. However that brings more questions.

[maldaeien.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm, let's think about it.
First of all I'm a girl who has consumed yaoi since the age of 14 (internet allowed me to search for it even with an adult content protection, it seems graphic novels do not count for those programs).
Anyways, going back to the topic I must say that even if I find attractive two men kissing like some men find attractive two women kissing, I don't believe it's a factor that influences my answer: Anyone, in an homosexual or heterosexual couple, can be the one who performs the dominate role and is not related to penetration. I think it goes for who leads the sexual intercourse (even if that person is the one who is "in the receiving end" :P sorry, could not help but to laugh at that comment when someone tried to explain me what yaoi was), more a mood thing :P People tends to guide their lives with the uke/seme concept even if not liking homosexual couples: "All what is cute, incredibly attractive, cheerful and happy is girly, therefore uke = woman = submisive. All what is serious, handsome, has presence and not a defined emotion is manly, therefore seme = man = dominates". It's that stupid thing of women are emotional and men are analytical. People just don't know that both concepts blend in really interesting ways in life.
Well, that was for life sort of stuff.
For fiction it has no logical reason of being :P Canon, Crack, OTP, etc. It is purely related to the author/fan's tastes and my icon proves it. GetBackers fandom: The short haired brunette man is always paired with the long haired brunette man (yes, he is a boy! *gasps*) but for a reason or another, in a moment of stupidity, with a friend, we decided to pair him with the blonde haired man for pure amusement reasons. That's why I like them together more than the original couple (I have read the author has made those two an oficial homosexual pairing <3) but it has no logical explanation of why I chose them to be together (though in Japanese fandom they can give you a telephone guide sized book with all the reasons of why they must be together :P).
The reasons might change from a person to another or might not even exist but all resumes to the author/fan's tastes :P
Hope I was able to help :D
*huggles*

Maldy

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

Yes but there must be a reason that most girl's prefer to portray there Ukes and Semes in such sterotypical ways. Most yaoi suspends reality and in the end they make a story of a heterosexual couple (with defined heterosexual dynamics) except that the couple is actually two guys. Heck both guys end up being essentially two girls who are disguised as guys! Clearly something Freud should investigate is going on.

[neon-geisha.livejournal.com]

I prefer NaruSasu over SasuNaru for reasons of personality - I can't see Naruto ever letting Sasuke top him, for one. Also, I think that fanfic-wise, the only time it'll ever make sense for them to have a relationship that doesn't consist mainly of insulting each other will be in a situation where Naruto helps Sasuke get over his emo-ness. XD

(also, Sasuke gives me the vibe like he's a lot less in-control than he pretends to be. really, he's just a scared, lost, confused boy. *rooting for Sasuke-redemption here*)

And keep in mind that when I talk about the uke/seme roles, I'm merely talking about who's the one on top or on the bottom in a sexual situation. I don't mean that the uke has to take a female role, because real relationships, even heterosexual ones at times, don't always follow classic societal "gender roles". (And if I see one more doujin where either Sasuke or Naruto essentially functions as a girl minus boobs plus a penis, I'm going to kick someone's ass. -_-;;)

[cutemew.livejournal.com]

And if I see one more doujin where either Sasuke or Naruto essentially functions as a girl minus boobs plus a penis, I'm going to kick someone's ass.

HIGH FIVE...!!! it seems like 95% of doujins and 60% of fanfics are like that... *cries a river* it's like, jeez. the story can still be girly and sentimental and sweet without Sasuke and Naruto being so fucking OOC, seroiusly

[cutemew.livejournal.com]

you should try this question at sasuxnaru, too. although that place has mostly sasunaru (as opposed to narusasu) fans...

[maldaeien.livejournal.com]

Also Narutoyaoi has a good amount of people and they can be helpful :D!

[amaridaijoubune.livejournal.com]

I know some people are strictly bottoms or strictly tops, but I don't know any of them. I see the possibility of the pairing like I do all the relationships I and my friends have had, both homosexual and heterosexual: Switching. Not always top, not always bottom. And then there's the different stages of a relationship...I don't know much about those 'cause it's mostly sex where I'm concerned, but I know people who are dominant when it comes to foreplay and submissive when it comes to actual intercourse, and vice versa. But yeah. My two cents. And I'm male. I think I interpret it as more of a Naruto-Sasuke rather than with the slashes, and Naruto's only first 'cause he's first in English alphabetical order.

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

I'm aware that in real relationships things are not so well defined but I am asking about peoples preference, not so much as reality. I can't believe that there is a guy who answered!

[kiraya.livejournal.com]

I've always been a firm believer that relationships should be between equals -- and you just aren't going to get that if you have a pairing in which the same person always dominates. Sure, one of them can top more often, but a little switching things around makes it more interesting (and believable, in my opinion). NaruSasu, SasuNaru, I really don't care either way... as long as neither's portrayed as a goddamn wimpy uke. I hate that.

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

But that's the thing most relationships when portrayed in the fandom become sterotypical uke and sterotypical realionships.

[helltown.livejournal.com]

I'm curious - why do you think that because women empathize with the feminine one, therefore want them to be on top? Couldn't the position come before the character, in this case? (i.e., men/women who prefer to be on top/bottom would empathize more with the character in their corresponding position?) It doesn't make a lot of sense that they want them to be on top just because they empathize with them. For example, you could just as easily say that women want Sasuke to be on bottom because he's more feminine, therefore they can relate to him better (if they're submissive themselves, which many, many women aren't of course, this is just an example).

It's an interesting question, but I think there are too many assumptions and leaps of logic being taken here. Gender certainly does make these kinds of conversations quite sticky!

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

I think that women would to some degree want to top to be the aggressor and to dominate over a man to some degree. When a person empathizes with a character on some level they decome a part of the character and tus would want to dominate. (I think I stepped into the penis envy theory and it is not all to pleasant)

[cephiedvariable.livejournal.com]

Heh, that's an interesting theory. The SasuNaru fandom itself seems split on the seme/uke issue, however I tend to believe that it's somewhat superflorous considering the whole crux of their relationship is the rivalry and the power struggle between them.

So before I rant about this proper, a little background: I'm female, nineteen, straight and have been slashing before I knew what it was. My mom's a lesbian, so I grew up surrounded by gay adults in gray relationships dragging me to gay pride parades. I was the eight year old who thought Garak and Bashir (from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine) were gay; I was the ten year old who thought Frodo and Sam were the most beautiful love story I'd ever read. I was the twelve year old who ventured onto the internet and went: "HOLY CRAP! Other people think Matt and Tai are totally gay as well! I'm vindicated! VINDICATED I TELL YOU!"

Okay, so when it comes to gender roles in slash fanfiction... for the most part I think they're a load of shit, just like gender roles in het fiction are a load of shit. Yes, there are some relationships where one person holds the balance of power, but rarely is it as evident as in fanfiction romance. I'm going to use a few example from another fandom first, if you don't mind.

The best example of a pairing where I think the seme/uke dynamic (which I tend to dislike on principal) could possibly be applied is Daisuke/Ken of Digimon 02. Ken tends to be emotionally dependant on Daisuke who plays the "Knight in Shining Armour" in this scenario. Plus Ken is girly, Daisuke is boyish, it all works out in the end LOLOLOLOL. Except not- because in the end, Ken balances out the relationship because, simply by the virtue of being himself, he gives Daisuke confidence. It's nothing he does intentionally, but Daisuke's always at his best when he's around Ken, and Ken needs Daisuke to keep him sane. So although it may appear unbalanced on the surface, it truly is a mutually beneficial partnership.

SasuNaru is a whole different bag of chips because it's, inherently, an unhealthy relationship. They are hostile and codependent and very, very classic shounen rivalry. Many people want Sasuke to top because he's taller, darker, more even tempered (this issue is debatble- in my opinion Sasuke's more violently emotional than Naruto)- this is the picture of a typical Japanese seme type.

But, Sasuke is so emotionally damaged and obsessed with his damn inferiority complex, I could see being in the dominate position as a bad thing in his case. Plus, Naruto would never give up without a fight. Neither would Sasuke for that matter, but I tend to think the tenative balance of power is tilted in Naruto's direction. Sasuke is hardly in control of his life, and he is certainly not in control of any of his relationships, least of all those with Naruto and Sakura- neither of whom he meant to care about, but both whom he was willing to die for.

Sasuke being sexually submissive would be a beautiful metaphor, which makes it infinitely hotter than Sasuke topping.

So I think in the end what I'm trying to say is that the actual SEXUAL dynamics in most relationships don't really matter to me. It's more the EMOTIONAL dynamic that decides who is seme and who is uke. Maybe this is because I don't write porn and never really have to consider the issue of topping. I think in most cases switching is a lot more accurate.

I realize this probably isn't the answer you were looking for, but hopefully it'll help you a bit?

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

Maybe it wasn't quite what I was looking for but baby I liked it! (As you can see I am slowly shutting down as this tread goes on)

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

I know I make tons of assumptions. This is why I was hoping for more male imput. Also this is why I used Naruto and Sasuke as an example. Naruto usually portrayed as uke because he is more attuned to his feelings and has cried on occasion. Yet of all the genin, he is the character that acts (in my opinion) the straightest. His actions boarder on the lecherous and he is the most crass and insensitive. The second being Kiba but people don't pair him in homosexual pairings as often as Naruto.

On the other hand Sasuke while he is more stoic, he is for the most part a social retard ( I hope the phrasing doesn't offend). I always thought of him as akward since he seldom interacted with others. When hugged or displaying emotions he becomes very akward. (Such as the scene where he offers his food- and when you think about it his chopsticks- to Naruto he blushes and can't bring himself to took Naruto in the eyes). He is a introvert while Naruto is a extrovert.

[cephiedvariable.livejournal.com]

Naruto may cry, but he cries big, gross, manly tears that are full of snot. XD Although I disagree on the point of Naruto being a lech (something about his behaviour towards Jiraiya tells me no), I do agree that he generally acts "straight", although I tend to identify his sexuality more as being based on emotion than what gender he's attracted to. SasuNaru is my OTP, however I have a hard time seeing Naruto attracted to any other males. Plus, on the flipside I love NaruSaku, so I tend to feel that he loves who he loves because he loves them- it transcends being bisexual, even. He just operates on instinct. Somehow that makes sense.

But I do totally agree with you on the point of Sasuke being utterly socially retarded. He's emotionally stunted at eight years old, but he thinks that he's all grown up. That in itself tends to make me think he'd suck at taking control of any sexual situation.

[cephiedvariable.livejournal.com]

And I failed at addressing the gender issue.

Ha ha ha.

I don't think about the gender issue. I don't think about it much in het either. I'm very proud to be a woman and I hold some very feminist ideals (but then again, wer're all tehnically feminists these days. XD), but I'm not very aware of my gender. Never have been- I grew up carrying around a toy gun and a skipping rope pretending to be a bounty hunter and I always wanted to play male OR female roles in plays.

So maybe it's that people who feel more defined by their gender are more likely to define relationships by it. I think females wanted Sasuke to top has less to do with identifying with him and more to do with identifying him as *male*. He's the one they want sexually (whether they realize it or not), and thus he needs to play the male role in sex so that they can put themselves in the interchangable uke role, even if it's only subconcious.

BUT WHO KNOWS.

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

OMG That make so much sense. I think this IS the answer I was looking for! It like a revelation. *And no I am not being sarcastic*

[kureno-rooster.livejournal.com]

I agree! However I always wondered why that is (I'm referring to your comment below). I wonder.

[yira-heerai.livejournal.com]

I haven't really stepped into the Naruto fandom in terms of ficcage- I don't write them and I don't read them. So in that, I couldn't really tell you. From the fandoms I have read fics in, the whole seme/uke dynamic seems to stem from a need to make a "normal" couple. One is dominant as a male would be, one is submissive and sometimes more effeminate as some females are. Most girls can't seem to get out of that sort of dynamic, from what I gather.

In the case of SasuNaru/NaruSasu, I could see them trying many different ways just for the experience of being together. Their comptitive natures would certainly make this dynamic interesting but overall, I think they would just be happy to be together all things considered. Once they'd been together long enough to know what both like and what both dislike, the role of seme and uke might be distributed more to one person rather than the other. That would be based on likes though. They would stil be equal. Two parts of a whole if you want to get mushy.

Like another poster had said, in the case of Naruto and Gaara, I think at the beginning it would mostly be Naruto having the dominant role. Naruto can get awkward when it comes to social interaction at times (ie the hand shake in the Kazekage arc), but as a whole he does have more experience. Once they got comfortable with each other, then it would end up as a case of who is better at what or who likes what and who doesn't.

This could be part of me being bisexual XD;; Why can't they get the best of both worlds?! (Seme and uke, I mean) I am female, by the way. ^^v Hope this helped some.

[gloomy-gloo.livejournal.com]

I must admit that I never thought about the how a person's gender might effect his/her seme/uke dynamic. The theories you listed here are very interesting, though I doubt that guys would care much to have a seme/uke dynamic in the first place.

Why can't they get the best of both worlds?!

They can have the best of both worlds if they switch roles every so often, which is how I prefer it with Sasuke and Naruto XD

[treat.livejournal.com]

Harrum~ though I personally prefer SasuNaru for reasons other than aesthetic appeal (and yes I can crank out a well thought-out dissertation if I had the time), I also like the prospect of having them NOT have top-bottom, seme-uke roles. It's more realistic.

I roleplay Naruto over at pod_ninjas and it made me rethink my whole stance on the seme/uke baloney nevermind the fact that 70% of the RPers there prefer NaruSasu XP. Though, yes, I have a tendency to mockity-mock the fandom's portrayal of "spazzy, adorable, painfully uke&barf" crack!Naruto, I actually had to crank out some brain cells in order to stay truly in character during serious logs. Surprisingly enough, almost 60%+ of the time Naruto is the one leading the relationship between him and Sasuke, be it platonic or romantic.

I think one of the main reasons SasuNaru is so wildly popular is because of Naruto's undying loyalty and belief in Sasuke. And also, uh...Naruto tends to go impossibly puppy-eyed when he sees Sasuke (e.g. when Sasuke breaks out of the bucket during the Sasuke-chase arc-"Let's head back, Sasuke!" it was almost BL manga-worthy cute) That really doesn't help "defend" his "dominant position." The way Kishimoto presents Naruto’s bond with Sasuke…it tends to lead people all the way back to the root of the seme/uke wars all over again.