On Sasuke and bonds
May. 14th, 2006 04:24 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
heronite.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
chuunin_archiveOh gosh! Spectrum, one of my favourite people on NF (yes, there are very good posters there as well, despite the majority of um... not so good posters) just returned with what I considered a really good post on Sasuke! So I begged her to be able to share it on LJ.
Those of you who like Sasuke, you'll probably like and agree with the following:
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=98950
The following was posted by Spectrum:
You know, Naruto and Sakura are so determined to save Sasuke...
...That no one seems to have made much of the fact that, unless I'm way off base here, he's trying to save them right back.
Seriously. He's already saved them at least once that we've directly seen, and possibly more times that we're not aware of. By convincing Orochimaru and Kabuto so thoroughly that he's cut any and all bonds to his former team, he may have very well spared their lives. The only reason Orochimaru has been so casual and unconcerned in his dealings with Team Yamato so far is because he knows their attempt at saving Sasuke is futile. If he had even the slightest inkling otherwise, I really doubt he'd have just left them there unharmed in the chapter before last. And considering the shape our team (and especially our protaganist) is currently in, the fact that Oro let them go may just have kept this manga from ending prematurely.
Of course, this begs the question--is his confidence in Sasuke's apathy toward his former teammates misplaced? On the surface, it doesn't seem like it. In this latest chapter, there wasn't much in his expression to suggest lingering feelings for his old teammates... there's not much emotion there at all, in fact. And back in 301, Sasuke certainly didn't seem to give a rat's ass whether or not Naruto still cared about him. "I only have one brother... the one I want to kill." Not particularly nolstalgic, and he said it convincingly enough that it's easy to see why Oro and Kabuto believe him.
But you know... Orochimaru and Kabuto weren't at the Valley of the End. And feh, you can say all you want about 2.5 years with Oro being enough to fuck up anyone's personality, but you know what? Sasuke sure hasn't changed much so far. His attitude is exactly the same as what we saw back in chapter 238. His style is the same (yes to Uchiha fans, no to Oto headbands, and no eyeshadow or nailpolish, thanks very much), his mannerisms (love how he was just chilling out like the cocky bastard he is when we first saw him in 300), his temper (poor Sai), and even what we've seen so far of his jutsu. (Not that he's ever been partial to genjutsu, but it's interesting that the first technique we saw was Sharingan-related rather than something to do with snakes.) So far, there's just about nothing to suggest that he's let Oro remold his personality as he sees fit. And really, why the hell would he? Sasuke's one of the most stubbornly independent characters in the show, and for all of his flaws and insecurities, I think he's about as likely to let Orochimaru brainwash him as Naruto would be.
That's not to say that he hasn't changed at all--he's obviously not the same person he was back in his Konoha days, and we knew that even before the timeskip. He's much more focused on revenge now, and I do think what Sakura and Naruto are attempting right now is pretty damn near futile. Sasuke's got other plans--he's not ready or willing to come back to Konoha yet. But neither is he about to turn his back on his teammates. To believe that he really no longer cares about Naruto or Sakura, or cares what happens to them, would be a mistake, and it's one that I think Orochimaru has made.
I fully expect Sasuke to behave as dispassionately and mercilessly as he ever has toward Naruto and the rest in the next chapter, and perhaps even fight them (it's likely, even, especially if Oro shows up). But I absolutely believe it won't be because he doesn't care... but rather because he does. Because he knows that unless he's made to see that he's wrong, Naruto will continue trying to save him until he either succeeds, or dies trying. And for all that he's shown to the contrary, I'd bet anything that Sasuke still feels that bond as strongly as Naruto, and he doesn't want to see Naruto get himself killed over him.
That's why I'm personally both anticipating chapter 307, and dreading it. I have a pretty sure feeling that after all of the unflinching determination and optimism Naruto's shown over the past arc, he's in for a major disappointment, perhaps even disillusionment at long last. I really don't think Sasuke's coming back with them just yet. He's not looking to be rescued, he just wants Naruto and Sakura to stay out of it and worry about their own problems for once in their lives. But in a way, he's protecting them just as much as they're trying to protect him.
(And what do you know, my first thread in 5+ months, and I'm already rambling on about Sasuke and his bond with Naruto again... it's almost like I never left. XD)
The following is a response by TenshiOni:
I completely agree.
You'd have to be a little out there to not realize Sasuke still cares for his former teammates. This was obvious after the Valley of the End fight. Despite haivng an unconscious Naruto at his feet, Sasuke realized he couldn't bring himself to kill his best friend/brother and made the decision to not submit to Itachi's words. In truth, he still loves Naruto and Sakura.
And yes, I also agree that Sasuke is simply putting up an act around Orochimaru. He knows Orochimaru was concerned with "the Kyuubi kid" making him stray from his revenge. And so now he's going to act like he doesn't know them or doesn't give a crap about them in 307 - I'm positive.
If these turn out to be accurate (quick likely), my esteem for Sasuke has just gone up. XD
Edit: Like, whoa @ all the responses. This is the last time I'm posting something for Spectrum, from now on I'll just poke at her to hurry with her own LJ so that she can post and respond herself. x_x At least others have taken care of handling most of the comments.
Those of you who like Sasuke, you'll probably like and agree with the following:
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=98950
The following was posted by Spectrum:
You know, Naruto and Sakura are so determined to save Sasuke...
...That no one seems to have made much of the fact that, unless I'm way off base here, he's trying to save them right back.
Seriously. He's already saved them at least once that we've directly seen, and possibly more times that we're not aware of. By convincing Orochimaru and Kabuto so thoroughly that he's cut any and all bonds to his former team, he may have very well spared their lives. The only reason Orochimaru has been so casual and unconcerned in his dealings with Team Yamato so far is because he knows their attempt at saving Sasuke is futile. If he had even the slightest inkling otherwise, I really doubt he'd have just left them there unharmed in the chapter before last. And considering the shape our team (and especially our protaganist) is currently in, the fact that Oro let them go may just have kept this manga from ending prematurely.
Of course, this begs the question--is his confidence in Sasuke's apathy toward his former teammates misplaced? On the surface, it doesn't seem like it. In this latest chapter, there wasn't much in his expression to suggest lingering feelings for his old teammates... there's not much emotion there at all, in fact. And back in 301, Sasuke certainly didn't seem to give a rat's ass whether or not Naruto still cared about him. "I only have one brother... the one I want to kill." Not particularly nolstalgic, and he said it convincingly enough that it's easy to see why Oro and Kabuto believe him.
But you know... Orochimaru and Kabuto weren't at the Valley of the End. And feh, you can say all you want about 2.5 years with Oro being enough to fuck up anyone's personality, but you know what? Sasuke sure hasn't changed much so far. His attitude is exactly the same as what we saw back in chapter 238. His style is the same (yes to Uchiha fans, no to Oto headbands, and no eyeshadow or nailpolish, thanks very much), his mannerisms (love how he was just chilling out like the cocky bastard he is when we first saw him in 300), his temper (poor Sai), and even what we've seen so far of his jutsu. (Not that he's ever been partial to genjutsu, but it's interesting that the first technique we saw was Sharingan-related rather than something to do with snakes.) So far, there's just about nothing to suggest that he's let Oro remold his personality as he sees fit. And really, why the hell would he? Sasuke's one of the most stubbornly independent characters in the show, and for all of his flaws and insecurities, I think he's about as likely to let Orochimaru brainwash him as Naruto would be.
That's not to say that he hasn't changed at all--he's obviously not the same person he was back in his Konoha days, and we knew that even before the timeskip. He's much more focused on revenge now, and I do think what Sakura and Naruto are attempting right now is pretty damn near futile. Sasuke's got other plans--he's not ready or willing to come back to Konoha yet. But neither is he about to turn his back on his teammates. To believe that he really no longer cares about Naruto or Sakura, or cares what happens to them, would be a mistake, and it's one that I think Orochimaru has made.
I fully expect Sasuke to behave as dispassionately and mercilessly as he ever has toward Naruto and the rest in the next chapter, and perhaps even fight them (it's likely, even, especially if Oro shows up). But I absolutely believe it won't be because he doesn't care... but rather because he does. Because he knows that unless he's made to see that he's wrong, Naruto will continue trying to save him until he either succeeds, or dies trying. And for all that he's shown to the contrary, I'd bet anything that Sasuke still feels that bond as strongly as Naruto, and he doesn't want to see Naruto get himself killed over him.
That's why I'm personally both anticipating chapter 307, and dreading it. I have a pretty sure feeling that after all of the unflinching determination and optimism Naruto's shown over the past arc, he's in for a major disappointment, perhaps even disillusionment at long last. I really don't think Sasuke's coming back with them just yet. He's not looking to be rescued, he just wants Naruto and Sakura to stay out of it and worry about their own problems for once in their lives. But in a way, he's protecting them just as much as they're trying to protect him.
(And what do you know, my first thread in 5+ months, and I'm already rambling on about Sasuke and his bond with Naruto again... it's almost like I never left. XD)
The following is a response by TenshiOni:
I completely agree.
You'd have to be a little out there to not realize Sasuke still cares for his former teammates. This was obvious after the Valley of the End fight. Despite haivng an unconscious Naruto at his feet, Sasuke realized he couldn't bring himself to kill his best friend/brother and made the decision to not submit to Itachi's words. In truth, he still loves Naruto and Sakura.
And yes, I also agree that Sasuke is simply putting up an act around Orochimaru. He knows Orochimaru was concerned with "the Kyuubi kid" making him stray from his revenge. And so now he's going to act like he doesn't know them or doesn't give a crap about them in 307 - I'm positive.
If these turn out to be accurate (quick likely), my esteem for Sasuke has just gone up. XD
Edit: Like, whoa @ all the responses. This is the last time I'm posting something for Spectrum, from now on I'll just poke at her to hurry with her own LJ so that she can post and respond herself. x_x At least others have taken care of handling most of the comments.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2006-05-13 08:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-13 08:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-13 08:48 pm (UTC)And yes, rep away! =D
no subject
Date: 2006-05-13 09:01 pm (UTC)I think deep down, Sasuke does care about and love his teammates, but he also knows that loving them will get in the way of his ultimate goal of revenge. So at this point, he wants to put it out of his heart and mind as much as possible, so that he doesn't lose focus.
(i.e. Sasuke is retarded)
no subject
Date: 2006-05-14 01:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-14 01:53 am (UTC)*laughs*
no subject
Date: 2006-05-14 02:01 am (UTC)Poor kid will never be Itachi II - no matter how hard he tries.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-14 02:03 am (UTC)when is Sasuke ever NOT retarded? (answer: never)
no subject
Date: 2006-05-13 09:19 pm (UTC)I don't believe Sasuke cares about his old team because they don't figure into his goal. That doesn't mean he hates them; he hates Itachi. But I don't think he's very interested in them (beyond the natural curiosity of any person who hasn't seen what someone looks like for 3 years).
While it's true Team 7 went through many adventures, it's also true that a ninja team is an artifically created unit; those people didn't initially choose each other based on their friendships. Naruto and Sasuke's friendship was always tenuous, each believing the other was being favoured and being jealous of each other for various reasons. It's just Naruto is kinda forgiving (or shallow, depending on how you look at him) and forgets this sort of stuff 10 seconds later and you're his best friend for life again; Sasuke isn't like that though. Sasuke hangs onto feelings and broods.
The way the Valley at the End worked out is Sasuke slashed his hitiate and walked away. That doesn't really need much interpreting. He didn't do it nastily. He doesn't hate his old team, like I said; but he did it and he made a statement, which he didn't need to make, but he made it. He made his choice and he walked away, and there is no reason for him to go back and every reason to keep going forward. Naruto himself is one of the reasons Sasuke left Konoha, and Naruto doesn't even get that. He doesn't understand why Sasuke did it and that's why he's persistantly, (annoyingly) trying to save someone who doesn't want to be saved.
And Sasuke won't be going back to Konoha, even if he wanted to, since he's a traitor to the village and in at least one member of Root's bingo book, if not in all of them. If Tsunade was to allow him back into the village without so much as a whisper of punishment, then I think Danzou would have the prefect official excuse for a coup I ever did see. And as the council are iffy about her rather blatant favouritism for so dangerous a creature as the kyuubi jinchuuriki, I think he might have some high official support.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-13 09:39 pm (UTC)Not saying that Sasuke isn't quite likely a bastard at this point, though I tend to error more on the side of indifference. He has convinced himself that apathy toward all that detracted from his purpose of killing Itachi is the best way to go about things. That said, I believe Sasuke still does feel something for his old teammates, he's just choosing to ignore that in favor of his drive. He's older. He thinks he's past all that. It's your typical "I'm a big boy now" behavior from a young teen. Pure Sasuke.
Naruto, on the other hand, continues to struggle for a bond that may no longer be now because it's his idealized family and control. Characters like these constantly need their rivals to push them, to grow. Naruto wants that push-and-pull back.
I do enjoy this approach that Sasuke may be behaving somewhat for the sake of safeguarding his friends, although, knowing Sasuke, chances are slim because Sasuke is quite selfish and it takes a lot to shake that.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-13 09:46 pm (UTC)I can't think for a second that right now he's thinking about safeguarding anyone; after that rooftop battle of theirs and then the Valley of the End, Sasuke's likely thinking 'this time I crush you' and the state Naruto's in after his latest temper tantrum turned serious, that won't actually be much of a challenge.
I am sure all will be revealed; Sai is a wildcard in all this, as he has an entirely curious approach to the whole business as the outsider. He got Naruto's side of the story; now he'll get Sasuke's side - he's already felt the wrath twice. ;)
no subject
Date: 2006-05-13 10:07 pm (UTC)Sai is entirely too obsessed with things not meant for his understanding, and I see him as getting his answers the hard way very very soon. My gut tells me Kishimoto has no intentions to hold onto Sai forever. Once he's served his purpose...
no subject
Date: 2006-05-14 02:01 am (UTC)>_>
<_<
no subject
Date: 2006-05-14 02:55 am (UTC)Honestly, Sai made me love him. And I really hated Sai to begin with. But I do think he's aimed for death. If Sasuke kills him, I don't see Naruto being able to get past that very well at all.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-13 11:27 pm (UTC)I have no desire to jump in on either side of this argument, but your words made me think of this line of Sasuke's from chapter 133 (said to Naruto, presumably about him and Sakura):
俺は一度全てを失った・・・ もう 俺の目の前で・・・ 大切な仲間が死ぬのは見たくない。
I lost everything once... I don't... want to see my precious friends die before my eyes again.
The translation of 仲間 (nakama) is, as always, debatable (it could be friends, it could be professional comrades), but 'taisetsu' as meaning important or precious is not.
Personally, I think Kishimoto means us to believe that Sasuke really does feel something for the other members of Team 7.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-14 01:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-13 10:56 pm (UTC)I don't think he cares, but I think he didn't kill Naruto because he doesn't actually hate him at all either. He blew out a lot of his anger in that fight and it kinda drew a line under things, I think. And yes, he didn't hate him enough by the end to do it. But there was definately a point in that fight when he was ready to do it. The bond wasn't strong enough to stop him walking away; his goal comes first, above all. He'll drop anyone and everyone to get to it. It's not a nasty thing; it's just priorities.
(And I have never been convinced that Mangekyuu develops in the way Itachi says it does anyway; there was only Itachi's word for that, and who knows where he got that from.)
no subject
Date: 2006-05-13 11:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-13 11:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-14 03:12 am (UTC)- this: http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/5223/naruto107105ft.jpg
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/6199/naruto107110dj.jpg
- the observation that Orochimaru has indeed stopped worrying
- the reminder of this: http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/8784/narutoch233p171gu.png
- and the fact that this interpretation would be "badass", thus something which would please the huge Sasuke fanbase while not taking away from the manga, quite the contrary. In short, it's something Kishimoto might really not shy from.
Just my two cents. *shrugs*
no subject
Date: 2006-05-16 01:19 am (UTC)Just want to point out that, if Sasuke truly felt indifferent towards Naruto, he probably would've killed him in that fight; Sasuke really doesn't strike me as the type of person who would need to hate his opponent in order to kill them in a self-defense situation.
Also, logically, it would have made the most sense to finish off Naruto, since it's quite obvious that he'd continue pursuing him even after being defeated, and in all likeliness, Sasuke realized this as well. Again, if Sasuke felt indifferent towards Naruto, he probably would've killed him, since he had no real reason to spare him.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-13 11:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-14 06:58 am (UTC)It's been made pretty obvious that Sasuke did care about his team in the past. He's shown his concern for their safety on countless occasions and before he left Konoha, he was looking forlornly at the Team 7 picture. I find it unlikely that he, who has supposedly never considered them to be friends, would have this type of reaction. If that were the case, he would've just left without needing to build up a resolve.
Not to mention, during the Valley of the End arc, he was undeniably torn over the fact of almost killing Naruto. He had started to say something, whether it was an explaination or something else I'm not sure, and crouched over him for awhile. These actions seem rather redundant if he didn't care at all; so what not just kill the guy you apparently don't hate but don't like either if it means being one step closer to Itachi? And need I to say, Sasuke had admitted that Naruto has become his closest friend at one point. This goes for Sakura too; he was quite intent on saving her when Gaara had held her captive and stated that he did not want to lose anymore importatn friends. Again, such emotions would not be present unless he had bonds with them.
Whether these bonds still stands as strongly right now is questionable, like you said, but it was definitely there before. I'd like to think he actually hasn't changed too dramatically but merely set his priorities straight. He has a calmer and more mature air about him now; perhaps he acknowledges that bond but chose not to show it until his goal is met. Ehh, I don't know. Sorry if this seems like nothing but a bunch of rehashing crap. I just felt like reinforcing what you said ^___^.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-14 12:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-14 02:13 am (UTC)After losing the "Sasuke won't be wearing an ass bow post-time-skip" bet with another friend, we made a new bet.
The first few words out of Sasuke's mouth in chapter 307 will be "Who are you and what do you want?"
I think my chances are 50/50.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-14 03:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-15 05:37 am (UTC)She's getting an lj?!!
no subject
Date: 2006-05-15 06:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-15 06:41 am (UTC)My spelling gives it -10 points thoughYes! She said so in that thread! =D I get to friend her! Yaaaay!!! And you don't! Okay maybe you do.
I'm content with stalking.