sasuke (again) discussion :)
Aug. 9th, 2008 06:30 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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chuunin_archivecontains spoilers(?) just want to know what you guys think..:)
i'm just baffled on how sasuke is so dependent on others (karin--latest chapter?!, and everybody) .
isn't it time for him to take matters into his own hands?! i mean good villains (is he?) are like that. or it is just his way to show how spankingly!good he is on manipulating people?!
toss away your 2 cents! :]]]
isn't it time for him to take matters into his own hands?! i mean good villains (is he?) are like that. or it is just his way to show how spankingly!good he is on manipulating people?!
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no subject
Date: 2008-08-09 10:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-10 07:04 am (UTC)because before the current chapter, as you said, he was like, ill deal with him, yadah yadah, so id never thought i will be seeing him in that veryvulnerable position, as if his life really depended on karin.
i dont know really, what's the deal with 'kishi, that even after all these years, we cant really figure out how sasuke's mind works. i mean we all know that naruto acts based on his instincts and feelings, but for sasuke? he sure acts based on revenge, but the question is IS IT REALLY?! or does he have hidden motives (once again)?!
gawd. sasuke is a real brainer.
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Date: 2008-08-09 12:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-10 07:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-09 01:15 pm (UTC)I think Sasuke found himself (maybe against his own will) caring "too much" about Sakura and Naruto, so he felt those bonds were threats he needed to sever lest he lose sight of his goal. Right now, I don't think he perceives any of his current . . . um, well "bonds" may not be the right word, but you know, whatever . . . as threats. In fact, right now, they're helping him, so why would he have a beef with them? That's my take on it.
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Date: 2008-08-10 07:07 am (UTC)but lets face it (sasuke included) that he cant really act alone with the kind of goal he has right now. maybe he needs them but he cant really admit it to himself.
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Date: 2008-08-09 01:17 pm (UTC)The dependence on his team-mates is interesting, It had always been my theory that Sasuke would only be able to kill Itachi when he realized the need for teamwork and that Naruto,Sakura and maybe Kakashi would help him
finish to job, obviously that theory has been blown out of the water now, but teamwork has always been an important message in the story.
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Date: 2008-08-09 06:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-09 02:10 pm (UTC)I think it's clear that Sasuke is the most misunderstood character in the series. A lot of that has to do with the echo-like chamber many people indulge in in the forums, fanclubs, message boards and the like. A lot of it also has to do with people assuming the Naruto series follows the same plotlines or standard conventions in regards to character archetypes and their treatment as other shounen manga. I think it's a mistake to do so, and one must look at this story based upon the realities of the treatment and actions of the characters...not expectations based upon assumptions for how something should turn out.
The first misconception is to consider Sasuke as a villain. No villain in this series has ever received such empathetic treatment as Sasuke. When people such as Gaara (when he was evil), Orochimaru, Sasori, or Sasori were in their battles, there was never any moment you could doubt that they weren't the "bad guys". They were specifically going out of their way to cause death, pain, destruction, or some variant while their opponents were working to protect others. Gaara was planning on transforming in Konoha, planned on killing Sakura (his attack on Sasuke was justifiable since Sasuke was ordered to stop him), and had previously gone out of his way to kill Lee (but was prevented by Shikamaru and Gai). Orochimaru is a no-brainer. Hidan and Kakuzu destroyed a monastery and killed Asuma's friend for the purpose of collecting a "bounty", while Hidan got his rocks off. Sasori had killed the most celebrated leader in the Sand's history and had committed numerous crimes for the purpose of turning living people into his "art".
The only time Sasuke was really portrayed as a villain was during the VotE fight when he specifically was aiming to kill Naruto in order to get the MS, but that was a temporary situation and which he had since regretted. Even at the end of that fight, one of the most powerful and [i]protagonist-affirming[/i] scenes was him refusing to gain the Mangekyou Sharingan by following in Itachi's footsteps and his vow to get power in his own way. That was also coincidentally the first time Sasuke had ever achieved the top ranking in the official character popularity poll for the series. That would hardly be the case if Sasuke was portrayed as a villain.
While Sasuke is undoubtedly portrayed as someone who does look into the abyss, there is a clear intention on Kishimoto's part to make his path justifiably defensible as well as empathetic. He portrays this through Sasuke not having innocent blood (or any blood for that matter) on his hands, through his devotion to his family and their memory (no matter what anyone says, he clearly is fighting for them more than even his own happiness as he stated to Sakura), his independent streak from both "good guys" and "bad guys" alike (betrayed both), his targeting of people who only had a role in his family's death (this running contrary to many in the echo-chamber who were saying he actively seek out and kill innocents), and his moments of vulnerability and innocence without pretense (him smiling at the Naruto bridge, gazing at Naruto's unconcious face after the Vote battle before vowing never to follow in Itachi's path, confessing to Madara the "memories [he'd] locked in [his] heart" about Itachi and then crying [which was powerful since that was only the third time he cried and the last time was when he was 8 years old], acknowledging Karin for her role in saving him, among other examples).
~post continued
Date: 2008-08-09 02:12 pm (UTC)That's just not the case.
Another misconception is that Sasuke is unable to work with others, or that his pride will not allow him to admit that he needs help from anyone (or at the very least show gratitude). This could not be further from the truth. The reason why Sasuke left Team 7 was because he believed his bonds were weakening his resolve to achieve vengeance and kill Itachi. He believed that he could not hope to achieve vengeance if he were to nurture his other bonds with his friends, partly because of Itachi's manipulation, but also because he already lost everything once and he had to struggle with weighing his future happiness and prospects versus that of his past and the duties entailed with it. His situation with Itachi was complicated because it dealt with those struggles along with the importance for him settling things for himself and his family. While on the surface it may look like an inability to acknowledge or work with others, in reality it was a matter that dealt exclusively with Itachi and the whole situation.
He has never been adverse to working with others. He grew to have respect for Kakashi once he saw his strength in the bell test; he had no trouble working with Naruto in the Wave Country; he knew he needed to train and learn all he could from Orochimaru to even stand a chance against Itachi; he acknowledges that the reason why he went to Orochimaru was because he wasn't strong enough; he specifically stated to Suigetsu that he chose his team for a reason and that he "needed" Karin. Yes, he stated to Orochimaru that all genius falls before the Uchiha, but he states later on to Karin that the reason Orochimaru was defeated so easily was because he was "weakened already", only giving the implication that he was purposefully shaking Orochimaru's confidence (which worked). Looking at the actual manga evidence, it only shows that Sasuke has a pragmatic sense of his own strength and is not averse to cooperation if necessary, hence him biding his time with Orochimaru and now Madara.
That's not to say that Sasuke doesn't get arrogant/cocky (since that is one of his characteristics and that will never change), or won't make the occasional mistake. The last chapter was a prime example of Sasuke letting his arrogance get the best of him, forgetting his brother's philosophy of never underestimating the opponent. Because he rushed head-first without gauging the abilities of his opponent beforehand (testing out his speed, using genjutsu, using a longer range technique, forgetting that the 8-tails has 7 swords compared to his one via the fodder-ninja he Geassed earlier) he nearly got himself killed. Of course it counts to his benefit that he was the one who planned on and depended upon his team -since it is the team that he picked out himself for their abilities- but it serves as a learning lesson that each opponent is different and they can't all be overwhelmed in the same way. Sasuke could have saved himself without needing this help if he had taken precautions in the first place.
However, like I said, it serves only as a learning experience so I think this is a positive for him in the long run.
Re: ~post continued
Date: 2008-08-09 03:07 pm (UTC)Re: ~post continued
Date: 2008-08-09 03:59 pm (UTC)You win at this wonderful character analysis of Sasuke. I adore you.
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Date: 2008-08-09 04:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-09 09:31 pm (UTC)Re: ~post continued
Date: 2008-08-09 09:54 pm (UTC)Re: ~post continued
Date: 2008-08-10 04:30 am (UTC)Re: ~post continued
Date: 2008-08-10 07:18 am (UTC)anyways, i agree with you in most parts. yeap, probably, sasuke is the most misunderstood among the naruto characters. probably because (in the forums, etc) no one will admit that at some point in the series, we are rooting for sasuke (to attain his goals whatever), because his character is the one who you love to hate, and hate to love for that matter.
i guess it would take a long time (most probably at the end) for us to realize who really is sasuke. cos finding out who he is, and what he really</> wants, at this point, would spoil the conclusion of the manga. but i bet, all he wants is to have a peace of mind (after his revenge for his family), and to have a renewed bond with naruto :)
Re: ~post continued
Date: 2008-08-10 01:15 pm (UTC)Re: ~post continued
Date: 2008-08-11 12:56 pm (UTC)&hearts ! Excellent, balanced analysis.
Re: ~post continued
Date: 2008-08-09 11:30 pm (UTC)http://www.kitwhitfield.com/2008/03/macho-sue.html
I don't have an airtight case on that one just yet, but just FYI for the forum at general. Especially since I've had the Stusuke argument several times myself.
Re: ~post continued
Date: 2008-08-10 06:48 am (UTC)Cool. We disagree. Wanna analyze the crap out of this? Meet me there and bring lots of caffeine or your beverage of choice.
Re: ~post continued
Date: 2008-08-10 07:39 am (UTC)Re: ~post continued
Date: 2008-08-12 07:38 am (UTC)I don't think Sasuke is a Gary, Marty, Macho or in fact any variety of Stu or Sue. I posted the article without really elaborating on my basic point since I was running off somewhere and didn't have time to really get into it.
But my point was that I've seen a lot of people complaining (possibly for good reason, since I can understand the irritation factor) about how Sasuke just gets trashed, called a Sue, etc by fans no matter what, and I've been puzzling over it myself. I've felt that the usual Gary Stu concept didn't really explain to me why people might be getting annoyed with the character since Sasuke doesn't really fit that mold. Not any more than, as mentioned, Naruto and Itachi for instance. This new variety of Sue, however, gave me a few inklings of where people may be getting subconsciously annoyed with Sasuke. This doesn't mean that I share those feelings or even are sympathetic to them. I just thought that this may give a few more clues as to why they come about. 'People are just stupid' is not really a very interesting or nuanced answer to this question, imo.
I assumed that you had some interest in trying to understand why people react this way to the character and why there is so much nasty disagreement over this character as opposed to just bitching about it. I can't really claim that I don't love bitching about fandom stuff myself, so I'm not saying that this is a bad thing by any means.
Finally, it's not a matter of me taking things personally so much as being annoyed with having motives and ideas I don't have ascribed to me. You also cherrypicked a lulz post to create a strawman of my complete opinion- and then dismissed that opinion out of hand. This is going to frustrate and annoy anyone, even if it's coming from strangers on the internet.
So, I thought I'd take a moment to do my own come, see, state ideas bit. Discussion has pretty much ceased on this post, but I did want to correct what I saw as an unfair distortion of what I was saying.
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Date: 2008-08-09 11:16 pm (UTC)But so far it doesn't seem to really make sense. If he needed Karin et al to do something for him in his long-range plan...
..uh, it would help if his long-range plan didn't seem to shift with his moods. His latest idea of 'okay, lets go get revenge on Konoha' strikes me more as just a modification of his original plan- 'lets focus monomanically on REVENGE so we don't have to actually face our problems or deal with our grief!' Maybe Kishi will retcon him into HAVING A DIABOLICAL INTRICATE PLAN ALL ALONG, but eh. I'd be more with the happy squee if Kishi actually admitted Sassyface didn't really have a logical plan, he was just kind of freaking out the way he always has to date.
And imo, the character isn't much of a manipulator. That's more Orochimaru's deal. He doesn't seem to have much of manipulative touch with his recruits. He just sort of went up to them and said 'Come with me.' And they were like 'dude, ok.'
Questionable if he's a villain. My prevailing view is that he's more of a self-destructive person who has to be saved from himself. He's not really going out of his way to harm anyone but himself- at least until Naruto gets all up in his face with the COME BACK DAMNIT thing. Or until he got this latest idea about attacking Konoha. Even then he seems to have this other (somewhat naive) idea that he can go in and just kill the 'guilty' people.
One question I have is if he actually believes that he's the one using Madara... yeah, while he's wearing Madara's clothes, doing Madara's bidding, working towards (what a coincidence!) Madara's goal and completely swallowing Madara's story without question. I could see that as something he'd growl at people to shut them up. But if he actually believes it himself? That's a scary level of self delusion.
At least until Kishi retcons MOAR so that it turns out that Sasuke was really really RILLY right all along. Le sigh.
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Date: 2008-08-10 01:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-10 05:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-11 12:13 pm (UTC)Post!Timeskip Sasuke has approached every situation he's encountered thus far with a logical plan. The plans hold the potential to backfire disastrously, and Sasuke has difficulty formulating a contingency plan mid-battle, but the character is not stupid.
Being traumatized and reacting out of that by falling into patterns of destructive thinking or behaviour doesn't make one stupid. I would agree that Sasuke has a plan, just not a fully logical plan. I question the idea that he is acting completely logically due to the shaky logic (imo) of seeking revenge in the first place. Killing your enemies, as even Naruto has pointed out, may not make you feel better at all. It's questionable if it even makes one feel that justice has really been served. If Sasuke is not out for emotional catharsis or justice, then there's the question of what his ultimate purpose is. There's also logical problems with the overall plan. When I look at the pattern of decisions in light of the comments the character has made (most tellingly for me, paraphrased: 'other bonds merely confuse you, and distract you from your real goals, and the emotions that matter.'), I don't see internally consistent, coldly rational decision-making.
That doesn't make him STUPID, that makes him a human being who is acting, again imo, ultimately out a unexamined hope that seeking revenge will somehow address the wrongs done to him. His goal, his methods and his strategy are questionable if you're going to claim they are all utterly *rational*. But if you put aside that, he does do well with planning and he's very good at getting things off the ground and running. My basic case in a nutshell re: this is that he's an excellent tactician and logistical planner, but he has issues with overall strategy. To wit: he's good at winning the battles but he's losing the war.
And Sasuke played Orochimaru like a gut harp. He pandered to the man's ego, fed him boldfaced lies, and waited for the opportune moment to strike. What's more, he was apparently biding his time since he was 13.
Didn't he say himself that he just waited until Orochimaru was weak and seized the opportunity? I'd call that good tactics over being a master manipulator. Orochimaru was able to use his emotions against him, not the other way around. But using Orochimaru's greed and impatience against him, or simply taking advantage of a lucky break in the situation and being able to leverage it to his advantage? That's some niiice tactical thinking, in particular when you consider how much older, more experienced and skilled Oro was.
Which would make perfect sense if Sasuke were trying to lure Madara into a false sense of security so he could betray him later. Note that there's no actual proof that Sasuke actually accepted Madara's every word as gospel; that's just what he said to Madara's face.
I'm not saying you're wrong, all interpretations are valid and there's a *lot* of room for differing opinion with this character. A lot of his actions seem to be currently shown to us almost without comment, as if we are to draw our own conclusions. The idea that Sasuke is cooly in control of the situation with Madara is not my preferred explanation, but it is an interesting thought that would be neat to explore. I suppose you could argue that Madara's clear vendetta against the village could be used against him. But still, imo, the emotional headtrip Madara laid on this kid re: Itachi strikes me as more the opposite. But eh, that's what makes horseraces.
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Date: 2008-08-11 12:14 pm (UTC)There seems to be a tendency among Sasuke fans to downplay his intelligence, psychological fortitude, and general competence whenever he strays from "the path of righteousness" instead of condemning him from an ethical standpoint.
Well, I recognize his intelligence and his intellectual fortitude. I suspect that I classify his cognitive methods in slightly different ways than you or others might (re: tactical thinking v. strategic thinking), but I still suspect I ultimately agree in terms of his overall intelligence. I don't think recognizing that the character could be interpreted to have some pretty serious psychological issues means that I'm denying his talents. If anything, it's the combination of the two that make him so interesting to me. While I do think that he's making some bad life decisions, this is not a moralistic judgment on the character. I don't think he's a bad person, I think he's acting out of untreated traumatic issues. As they say, that's a health issue not a moral issue.
The character is easier to love, and most importantly, forgive, if he's weak-willed or flatout stupid rather than cold-heartedly evil; this leaves Sasuke "safe" because it renders him too incompetent to be considered a legitimate threat and shields him from actual character development, which holds the potential to make him one.
That's an interesting assumption, but it's not relevant to my reasons for finding this character interesting. Seeing as what I find most compelling about him is the intersection of a very smart and extremely talented and dedicated person who is nonetheless being undone by his preexisting psychological issues, I don't think this amounts to me thinking he's stupid or weak-willed- or evil (which is a theological concept) and cold-hearted (reserved and undemonstrative not being the same thing). Or even both of these things at once. It is in fact that very real danger that the character may end up going too far that makes him so interesting. And it's the threat (physical, emotional, psychological) that he presented to Naruto (and, arguably to himself) that makes his situation all the more compelling.
I still stand by my opinion that he is actually neither, but rather a morally gray character with positive qualities to balance out the negative.
Since this is more or less the position I just outlined myself, I'd say there is really no disagreement.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-11 12:25 pm (UTC)".... was treated like a
completecomplete character theory..."And:
" ...the threat (physical, emotional, psychological) that he
presentedpresents to Naruto...."Seeing as that threat is still completely present, and in fact driving the series plot.
Hell, my inability to type an analysis without five zillion typos would probably be a better reason to decide I've got nothing of interest to say than some capslock lulz I posted because I had too much coffee.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-10 07:35 am (UTC)i understand that the manga involves a lot of different side stories to make it more interesting and real, but with what is happening right now, it makes naruto as one of the side stories and not the main story. it's because the whole sasuke-plot is different. in one angle, you can make it as a different manga.
someone pointed out that why would no one criticize naruto on why he acts like he acts. it's because he is the main character, he has an excuse to do stupid things, act cocky and arrogant, so as to potray that he is not perfect.
im not the biggest sasuke-fangirl, so im quite annoyed that he somehow steals the show. BUT im quite impress on how kishi really developed his character, from a sulking/emo ninja to someone who has real goals, and can actually take leadership.
maybe kishi should hurry to reveal his REAL INTENTIONS. so sasuke wont get abused by posts like this. :D
no subject
Date: 2008-08-10 03:19 pm (UTC)Except to Naruto himself Sasuke's story is very important. Sasuke was - until Jiraiya's death - his whole motivation for getting stronger in part 2, and I think if Kishi-sensei had skipped Sasuke's plot of it people would be pissed at wondering what the hell Sasuke did all that time, plus it let's us know ultimately who Naruto is fighting for. And of course, if Sasuke wasn't so important then we would never had finally gotten some answers re Itachi and the Uchiha massacre.
At the end of the manga the story will go back to Naruto, but in order to get there we have to see Sasuke's side as well, so we see just who Naruto is fighting so hard for.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-11 01:14 pm (UTC)maybe kishi should hurry to reveal his REAL INTENTIONS. so sasuke wont get abused by posts like this. :D
Amen. :D
Though even when we finally get some answers out of Kishi- or even some clear statements about authorial intent- we'll still probably be having this basic argument. *Everything* a character does can be interpreted in widely different ways, even if it is explained to the reader (you can always, for instance, second guess the intent of the author or claim that the author's stated intent ended up being executed as something completely different. Which is FUN.)
Poor Sassyface comes in for a lot of fan vitriol because he's a polarizing character, as the poster upthread nicely demonstrated. And given what I've seen re: fan opinion of similarly polarizing characters in other media, that pitched disagreement never really goes away. Anyone who follows the independent comic series Elfquest could note that similar arguments are *still* raging about the respective rival character therein, and we're 30 years in at this point. It seems to be the rival characters who cross the protagonist that always catch hell this way. Poor Sasuke was just 'born' (created) unlucky, I guess. XD