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chuunin_archive[Because I seem to be randomly obsessed with the guy lately]
I apologize if any of this has been discussed many times before. I've never seen this specific topic, so I wanted to make a post for it. I've seen many Pein-centric theories circulating around the fandom, most concerning his identity (which, in theories, seems to range from Nagato to Minato to Kushina Uzumaki); this is all very fascinating and interesting to read, but it is my personal conjecture that the character is more intended to represent a kind of concept and a kind of parallel -- hence the name: "Pain", an idea. I wouldn't be surprised if those six bodies shared some kind of similar pain in their lives.
Then you have the fact that he somewhat resembles Naruto. I'm of the mind that this resemblance is intentional, but I don't think it means that Pein is Minato, or Kushina, or any other Naruto-related entity. I think the resemblance -- like Naruto's resemblance to Obito or Naruto's resemblance to Tsunade's younger brother -- is meant to suggest a kind of parallel: "Pein" is the kind of person Naruto could grow to become if he loses sight of his ideals, ideals similar to those which Nagato espoused as a child and which Naruto now espouses.
I guess the reason I'm making this post is because with all the focus on who Pein may or may not be, I feel like certain things about the character are becoming a bit . . . I'm not sure obfuscated is the right word, because I don't actually know that my take on him is correct, either, and who knows? His identity may turn out to be as surprising and wonky as Kushina, for all I know.
But here's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
For a while, I kept seeing Pein's "emotional reaction" to the prospect of killing Naruto mentioned, usually in conjunction with some theory that Pein and Naruto might be related. I seriously didn't even remember anything that might constitute an "emotional reaction", so I went and looked it up. I assume it's in reference to this.
Now, I could be way off the mark here, but it would seem to me that if the rain is Pein's way of expressing his sadness/displeasure, then his displeasure is probably most closely in response to the page that came before. If this is the case, then my belief is that what's hinted at here is nothing to do with Naruto in particular and more to do with a subtle displeasure over Madara's grander scheme (as referenced in the above page) and the hopelessness and doom it entails.
The overall impression I get from these scenes is that Pein's heart is not entirely with Madara. This is something I just can't shake.
I'm not saying that he's going to make a big conversion somewhere down the line (i.e. Gaara) or that he's going to turn out to be A Secret Hero (i.e. Itachi), but I think that on some level, there are hinted misgivings at work here, and perhaps some remnants of Nagato (assuming Pein is, in fact, Nagato). He does still seem to retain some -- well, "kindness" is not the word, but some code of respect, after his own fashion, as evidenced by the fact that he seems to suggest mourning for Deidara.
In Naruto, you can tell a lot about a character by their facial expressions.
Konan and Pein have that sort of sad, put-upon expression comparable to Haku, Kimimaro, Itachi, and other bound characters who are doing things that don't really give them joy but that they feel they must do (I suspected Itachi's true nature for a long time if for no other reason than his usual face – something you can also retrospectively notice in the pictures I linked). It's notable that this separates them from other “villainous” types like Orochimaru, Deidara, and Sasori, who smirked and sneered and scowled. I know I've seen fanart of Pein smirking and generally being portrayed as the “confident, pwnsome Akatsuki leader”, but I can't for the life of me remember him ever smiling in canon.
So what does all this mean? I'm not really sure. Like I said, I may be entirely off the mark here, but I think it's likely that Pein and Konan will turn out to be more Kimimaro-esque villains than Oro or Madara-esque types, if you understand my meaning. I'm not certain how bound by Madara they are, or how much they buy into his way of thinking, or what doubts they may still retain on some level, or if perhaps they're spiraling into hopelessness because they feel that This Is How It Must Be – as I suspect is the case.
At any rate, I think they're both meant to be very tragic figures, in spite of Pein's God-like status.
I think Pein is meant to parallel What Naruto Has the Potential to Become If He Ever Went Astray, as evidenced by his partial resemblance, his childhood motives, and the fact that he was Jiraiya's student and the prophecy which Jiraiya took to be about him actually seems to be about Naruto. I think there's a connection, yes, but I don't think it is a filial one, and I would not be at all surprised if the story of Nagato and Yahiko somehow turns out to bear some resemblance to Naruto and Sasuke.
Naruto is all about parallels, after all.
Incidentally: Nagato. Naruto. Uh-huh.
So, like I said, sorry if this is the nth time this has all been said, but I've not really seen it mentioned anywhere. Just thought I'd try to start up a discussion and put some opinions in here.
Also, I may just throttle Kishi if Pein does turn out to be some random, nonsensical identity like Kushina, but I really doubt the likeliness of this! Seems about like the Tobi+Obito deal to me.
I apologize if any of this has been discussed many times before. I've never seen this specific topic, so I wanted to make a post for it. I've seen many Pein-centric theories circulating around the fandom, most concerning his identity (which, in theories, seems to range from Nagato to Minato to Kushina Uzumaki); this is all very fascinating and interesting to read, but it is my personal conjecture that the character is more intended to represent a kind of concept and a kind of parallel -- hence the name: "Pain", an idea. I wouldn't be surprised if those six bodies shared some kind of similar pain in their lives.
Then you have the fact that he somewhat resembles Naruto. I'm of the mind that this resemblance is intentional, but I don't think it means that Pein is Minato, or Kushina, or any other Naruto-related entity. I think the resemblance -- like Naruto's resemblance to Obito or Naruto's resemblance to Tsunade's younger brother -- is meant to suggest a kind of parallel: "Pein" is the kind of person Naruto could grow to become if he loses sight of his ideals, ideals similar to those which Nagato espoused as a child and which Naruto now espouses.
I guess the reason I'm making this post is because with all the focus on who Pein may or may not be, I feel like certain things about the character are becoming a bit . . . I'm not sure obfuscated is the right word, because I don't actually know that my take on him is correct, either, and who knows? His identity may turn out to be as surprising and wonky as Kushina, for all I know.
But here's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
For a while, I kept seeing Pein's "emotional reaction" to the prospect of killing Naruto mentioned, usually in conjunction with some theory that Pein and Naruto might be related. I seriously didn't even remember anything that might constitute an "emotional reaction", so I went and looked it up. I assume it's in reference to this.
Now, I could be way off the mark here, but it would seem to me that if the rain is Pein's way of expressing his sadness/displeasure, then his displeasure is probably most closely in response to the page that came before. If this is the case, then my belief is that what's hinted at here is nothing to do with Naruto in particular and more to do with a subtle displeasure over Madara's grander scheme (as referenced in the above page) and the hopelessness and doom it entails.
The overall impression I get from these scenes is that Pein's heart is not entirely with Madara. This is something I just can't shake.
I'm not saying that he's going to make a big conversion somewhere down the line (i.e. Gaara) or that he's going to turn out to be A Secret Hero (i.e. Itachi), but I think that on some level, there are hinted misgivings at work here, and perhaps some remnants of Nagato (assuming Pein is, in fact, Nagato). He does still seem to retain some -- well, "kindness" is not the word, but some code of respect, after his own fashion, as evidenced by the fact that he seems to suggest mourning for Deidara.
In Naruto, you can tell a lot about a character by their facial expressions.
Konan and Pein have that sort of sad, put-upon expression comparable to Haku, Kimimaro, Itachi, and other bound characters who are doing things that don't really give them joy but that they feel they must do (I suspected Itachi's true nature for a long time if for no other reason than his usual face – something you can also retrospectively notice in the pictures I linked). It's notable that this separates them from other “villainous” types like Orochimaru, Deidara, and Sasori, who smirked and sneered and scowled. I know I've seen fanart of Pein smirking and generally being portrayed as the “confident, pwnsome Akatsuki leader”, but I can't for the life of me remember him ever smiling in canon.
So what does all this mean? I'm not really sure. Like I said, I may be entirely off the mark here, but I think it's likely that Pein and Konan will turn out to be more Kimimaro-esque villains than Oro or Madara-esque types, if you understand my meaning. I'm not certain how bound by Madara they are, or how much they buy into his way of thinking, or what doubts they may still retain on some level, or if perhaps they're spiraling into hopelessness because they feel that This Is How It Must Be – as I suspect is the case.
At any rate, I think they're both meant to be very tragic figures, in spite of Pein's God-like status.
I think Pein is meant to parallel What Naruto Has the Potential to Become If He Ever Went Astray, as evidenced by his partial resemblance, his childhood motives, and the fact that he was Jiraiya's student and the prophecy which Jiraiya took to be about him actually seems to be about Naruto. I think there's a connection, yes, but I don't think it is a filial one, and I would not be at all surprised if the story of Nagato and Yahiko somehow turns out to bear some resemblance to Naruto and Sasuke.
Naruto is all about parallels, after all.
Incidentally: Nagato. Naruto. Uh-huh.
So, like I said, sorry if this is the nth time this has all been said, but I've not really seen it mentioned anywhere. Just thought I'd try to start up a discussion and put some opinions in here.
Also, I may just throttle Kishi if Pein does turn out to be some random, nonsensical identity like Kushina, but I really doubt the likeliness of this! Seems about like the Tobi+Obito deal to me.
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no subject
Date: 2008-08-12 01:31 pm (UTC)Pein's "principal body" is definitely Yahiko, but he has nothing to do with the real Yahiko.
The Sasuke-Naruto parallel will rather be about whether Sasuke will go astray (he is walking a dangerous path) than about Naruto going astray (which won't happen.) I am however a bit annoyed that it is assumed that the children who became serious after a lot of bad events are in greater danger of becoming evil.
The relationship between Pein and Madara is a difficult one. I cannot believe that Madara's aim is to promote peace via some kind of atomic bomb jutsu involving the bijuus. That's Pein's aim, not his. I have no idea about Madara's principal aim, except revenge on Konoha, and perhaps reestablishment of the Uchiha clan.
I have no idea why Pein agreed to follow Madara. On the other hand, I have not much pity for those who follow the real evil guys, even if their story is sad - be they Itachi, or Haku, or Kimimaru.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-12 08:09 pm (UTC)I haven't really given Pein a lot of thought, but your ideas are really intriguing. I agree that he's definitely a symbol of something... I haven't really thought of where he fits into the thematic system of the plot. But now I'm really curious.
He does resemble Naruto, doesn't he? And he was in a highly symbolic fight with Jiraiya- an obvious preexisting Naruto symbol (as Naruto's possible future- if he keeps his ideals but still fails in his quest to save his friend.) So this:
"Pein" is the kind of person Naruto could grow to become if he loses sight of his ideals, ideals similar to those which Nagato espoused as a child and which Naruto now espouses.
..is VERY possible. And a really interesting idea I'd completely blanked on myself.
The blurring/obfuscation of his character may be Kishi's tendency to (imo) write things inconsistently and switch around contexts and implications about characters who's true nature is in doubt. He doesn't seem to do this entirely consciously, but eh it's all speculation on my part. It may just be a writing quirk of his. Almost all writers have at least a few of them.
Good discussion topic. :D This stuff didn't even occur to me, and it's really something that should have.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-12 08:11 pm (UTC)'who's' = whose.
typos are my evil archenemy.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-13 02:14 am (UTC)And he was in a highly symbolic fight with Jiraiya- an obvious preexisting Naruto symbol (as Naruto's possible future- if he keeps his ideals but still fails in his quest to save his friend.)
Yeah, that's a good point, and what really tipped me off was all that talk about the "Destined Child" and how at first said figure was believed to be Pein, but is later hinted to be Naruto. Then, when Jiraiya is dying, he has all these thoughts about Naruto, Kushina, and Minato. People looked to this and reasoned that there must be some kind of connection between Pein and Naruto, but imho (I may be wrong, but I'd be surprised if I were) the connection is only what I've said here, not any kind of actual blood connection. I don't think Pein is Naruto's long lost brother/cousin/uncle/what-have-you. Otherwise, Konan's presence/existence and the Nagato/Yahiko stuff wouldn't make a lot of sense and would seem awfully randomly thrown in.
The blurring/obfuscation of his character may be Kishi's tendency to (imo) write things inconsistently and switch around contexts and implications about characters who's true nature is in doubt. He doesn't seem to do this entirely consciously, but eh it's all speculation on my part. It may just be a writing quirk of his. Almost all writers have at least a few of them.
I agree with you here. I think Kishi does like pulling the wool over people's eyes, but more with regards to character's motives (Itachi, I'm looking at you) than their identities. I don't think he's so big on the secret identity stuff, but I do think he likes to try to surprise people in other ways. However, I also think sometimes he's just clumsy and inconsistent and he gets people looking in all kinds of weird directions regarding characters (Tobi and Obito!).
no subject
Date: 2008-08-13 09:43 pm (UTC)Hmm. Naruto and Pein as the two students/successors of Jiraiya is verrrrrry interesting. Given that Kishi seems to be propelling Naruto towards Sasuke, it makes me wonder where Pein is going to fit into all of that. I agree that he doesn't really seem entirely on board with Madara.
Given also that Naruto has previously asserted that all kinds of non-blood relations are his symbolic fathers or brothers, I'd say that there's absolutely zero need for Pein to be linked to him by blood.
I don't think he's so big on the secret identity stuff, but I do think he likes to try to surprise people in other ways. However, I also think sometimes he's just clumsy and inconsistent and he gets people looking in all kinds of weird directions regarding characters (Tobi and Obito!).
Totally. He seems to like to be sneaky, but in a really underhanded way. What makes me lol so hard at the manga sometimes is the Voice Of The Narrator, the heavy bold text that (usually breathlessly) informs us of Exactly What We Should Think and Exactly What's Going On. And it seems like half the time Narrator Voice is one flaming liar lying-pants that lies. XD
Fave example: "ZOMG Sasuke's Heart Has Turned Ice-Cold To Naruto!" in the 300-era confrontation with Team Kakashi and Sasuke. Riiiight. And like 2084304 times before that voice has told us the exact opposite. Kishi's totally messing with us. XD It's kind of awesome, other than it leads to 23048239483 fan arguments.
Which some hotheaded moron *cough* seriously needs to learn to Stay The Fuck Out Of.Actually, you know.. I haven't seen a lot of Pein!centric fanstuff around. Wonder why. You'd think he'd have the whole fanbait package- bishie, tormented, piercings(!), at least the pretense of power and authority, morally conflicted, questionable loyalties... Weird.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-14 02:37 pm (UTC)I'm not entirely sure, either, re: where Pein fits in, though I do heavily suspect Madara will be more reserved for Sasuke to deal with. It'd make sense for the last Uchiha clan member to kill the founder of the Uchiha clan (going also with what Kakashi said to Kakuzu about the new generation always surpassing the previous); I kind of have this whole theory that this would cement Sasuke as a hero in the end and right some of the mistakes he's made, though he might possibly die in the process (thus ending the Uchiha clan entirely). Of course, that's an awfully sad theory, even if it would give Sasuke a lot of heroism.
But back to the topic of this post. It's VERY ironic that you bring up the narrator voice, because I was just thinking before:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/372/01/
The second one caught my eye for just the reason you mentioned. It was kind of like . . . "BRUTALITY? Really, Kishi?" because I'm a cynic and tend to start assuming that when the covers say those things, they're trying to subtly hint that there's some kind of conspiracy at work. They did the same thing with Itachi, constantly showing him on covers with blurbs about Z0MG WUT SEKRETS LIE BEHIND HIS EYES? So in Naruto-world, such a cover tends to be my cue to start questioning if a character's motives are what they seem or not.
Actually, you know.. I haven't seen a lot of Pein!centric fanstuff around. Wonder why. You'd think he'd have the whole fanbait package- bishie, tormented, piercings(!), at least the pretense of power and authority, morally conflicted, questionable loyalties... Weird.
Probably because his motives and even his identity are still kind of up in the air. I am really rather intrigued by the guy, but I have to say that a lot of my liking of him rests on the theory that his motives and story are more complicated than they seem at a glance, and if Kishi were to let me down on that one (though I really don't think he will, since he's already started to give Pein a backstory), I probably would not like him as much. I can't speak for anyone else, but I kind of think the stuff with Itachi -- a character being entirely different than what they initially seem like, and for Itachi this was really far reaching! -- may make some people a bit hesitant about doing a lot of fanworks for a character who is still so open-ended. I have seen some really nice Pein/Konan drabbly stuff like this (http://aufretrospect.livejournal.com/15540.html), but not a lot of it.
My theory on who-what he is is as follows (I guess if any damned bit of this turns out to be right, I can say "in b4 . . . " XD): Jiraiya senses Nagato's spirit (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/408/09/) in the only Pein body he manages to permanently defeat; it's said that Pein may not truly exist and everything he does is delivered by proxy (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/07/). He keeps his bodies in a room which Jiraiya never actually gets into, and which Pein seems to guard during the fight (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/15/). All throughout their fight, Pein seems to be standing guard over that hole. Inside, the bodies seem to be put into machines in which they're powered up like batteries (this would probably go with all the piercings and markings, a la Frankenstein's monster). Powerful as he is, he seems to operate within a very limited range in Amegakure; even his Akatsuki meetings are coordinated with astral projections. Jiraiya says this is because Amegakure is hard to get into and someone with a lot of secrets to hide would want to be there.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-14 02:38 pm (UTC)So those are my theories. There are still some holes and gaps to them, and I'm still not sure if I think his motives are as clear-cut as they're made out to be (I have to wonder what he means when he says he's "surrounded by an infinite universe of pain") or if he is some kind of secret revolutionary in disguise a la Itachi and his double-triple-quadruple agent-ness, but I guess we'll see!
no subject
Date: 2008-08-18 12:45 am (UTC)