Spoilerish (and snarky) question

[000-hester-000.livejournal.com]

Since I only recently read the manga, a question for people who have been in the fandom for awhile.



I gather that the revelation of Pein's identity, motives, powers, etc. etc. was the point when a lot of people in the fandom decided that Kishimoto had finally jumped the shark completely. ...Which isn't surprising, given that he wants to take over the world, is Jiraiya's supah-sekrit ex-apprentice who turned to The Dark Side of the Force (oh noes!), has eyes that make both Sasuke and Neji (and Hinata, but she doesn't matter because she's a girl and girls suck) turn up their emo dials all the way to eleven, and is really really really really really cool and let's all hope that the person I'm talking about right there is Pein, not Kishimoto-sensei.

But since I wasn't here at the time all of that first came out, and I'm an OCD person who needs to double-check everything, what specifically was it about him that annoyed people? (And what were some of the general theories about Leader-sama prior to that?)

I'm a bad guy and my name is, like, PAIN! Look at how clever I am! <3

Comments

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

I wasn't around when this was actually revealed, but I don't know what the big fuss is over Pein's motives sucking. Of course, I'm biased, because I think Pein's motives could prove to make for a really interesting conflict with Naruto.

This post explains why (http://zapenstap.livejournal.com/2756.html). I'm not sure. Maybe people were expecting Pein to be more of a hero/"anti-hero"? But it's clear to me that Pein does have an interest in saving the world, at least in some vague sense. He doesn't actually like people, and even sneers down at them, but he does seem motivated by the sense that he is Supposed to Save the World.

In that respect, Pein is the antithesis of Naruto, whose childhood has given him the ability to love his friends quite dearly. Pein has the desire to help the world, but it's a hollow desire because the actual human compassion seems to have been lost somewhere along the way. I for one look forward to seeing their ideologies clash. It could be akin to the "old" Naruto, if Kishi handles it accordingly.

I don't get all the Pein hate. I really like the guy, and this is why.

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

And he is damn easy to poke fun at.

He can't be easier to poke fun at than half of his team-mates, though. XD; I mean, really . . . Hidan, Deidara, all the Akatsuki lulz and bullshit?

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

I'm actually extremely glad his motives didn't turn out be "world domination: doin' it for the lulz", because that would have been cliche. Wanting to end all war in the world through some massive and terrible acts may be somewhat cliche, too, but much less so, and it has the potential to be much more intriguing.

What I think is interesting about Pein is that if you look at his childhood (assuming he is, in fact, Nagato), he originally was somewhat Naruto-esque: Above all else, he wanted to protect his friends, no matter what it might cost. However, somewhere along the way, the tragedies of his life seem to have caused him to lose his sense of humanity. God, as they say, is no respecter of persons; this seems to fit Pein to a tee.

Also interestingly -- and maybe this just stems from my massive love of P/K and I'm being extremely biased in saying this -- it seems to me that Pein does have someone near him, Konan, who seems to care about him and who is a staple of his childhood and who, furthermore, he still protects on some level, but he obviously mostly overlooks her due to his goal of (again) Saving the World.

What I'd like to see Kishi do with Pein is illustrate, somehow, that in chasing after some high ideal, he has forgotten the importance of the very bonds he (Nagato) wanted to protect -- an importance Naruto of all people knows. Will Kishi actually take this route? Well, I have no freaking clue. This is just what I want to see.

To me, the "suckiest" thing about Pein is that much of what he COULD be may never see the light of day. I think has a LOT of potential, but will it come through? I guess we'll wait and find out. Kishi might just say to hell with any of this and shove him aside to make way for other characters.

[ginger-maya.livejournal.com]

Indeed. Pein seems to be Naruto's reflection, darkly. Down to the appearance of his main body, xD

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

I know, right? That can't be a coincidence. And the way that first main shot of him (when Madara mentions that he's the leader) is drawn really emphasizes their physical resemblance. I definitely think you're intended to see him as "Naruto, through a mirror darkly", even if their pasts are rather different.

[ginger-maya.livejournal.com]

*nods* Different, yet similar. Both were orphans, bot suffered because of it - Pein because of the war, Naruto because he was hated due to the Kyuubi. Both formed very strong bonds with two people. Pein is what Naruto could (have) become, under specific circumstances.

[akapiratequeen.livejournal.com]

My issue with Pein (besides all the ones you mentioned) is that he hasn't been developed in a way that makes his (to me) compelling. As Hieronymoush mentions, all the potential is there. But so far, he has come across as one-dimensional as one of Konan's paper flowers. Even KillerBee, by contrast, packed more weird/quirky/interesting personality into a few chapters than we've seen from Pein total. When he kills Jiraiya, my first thought (after onoz, now who am I going to marry!) was "Really?" Like, wtf is this guy? It wasn't believable to me, after all the build-up about Sannin awesomeness (and okay, I love Jiraiya hard), that this guy should come out of nowhere with some "past student uh but guess it wasn't important enough for Kishi to mention it once over the past ten years" back story and kill someone so important. It was just so--random.

So yeah, he annoys me.

[akapiratequeen.livejournal.com]

Yes, good lulz there. All true about Jiraiya. Like his teammates, he was one fucked up ninja.

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

I suppose I can see how that'd be frustrating. I came to the manga pretty late into the game, after Pein had already killed Jiraiya, so to me, it was old and accepted news rather than, "Who is this dude?"

I just want to see what Kishi decides to do with Pein and where he takes the remainder of his story. I'm perfectly aware that all the "potential" I outlined may never come to fruition and I may have to wash my hands of Pein (or else write endless fanfics about him which do it differently, haha), but I'm holding out on judgment until I see his story's conclusion. Kishi already gave the guy a canon, in-series backstory, which is more than he's done for most of the other Akatsuki (again, assuming Pein is Nagato), so perhaps he intends to finish it off somehow with further story.

Even KillerBee, by contrast, packed more weird/quirky/interesting personality into a few chapters than we've seen from Pein total.

I guess I can see that perspective, too, though I think I had the opposite reaction, simply because many Naruto characters are funny and weird and quirky (again, see also: most of the other Akatsuki), I was glad to see someone who seemed serious and sober and absolutely without humour or mercy (though I note, he is rather respectful, which is kind of idiosyncratic). Of course, I guess my opinion can be taken with a grain of salt, because the two characters I do the most fannish obsessing over are Gaara and Pein, so maybe I just have some weird fetish for characters with only one facial expression. ;p [Or, um, I can just bullshit my way through and say, "It's the thoughts BEHIND the stoic exterior which intrigue me, yo!"]

[ginger-maya.livejournal.com]

I'm his fan. Didn't get annoyed at all. Surprised, yes, annoyed, no.

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

Oh, God. Orochimaru is so, so sad. It is almost pitiful how badly canon pwned him.