Toxic gender-politicking and Naruto

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

I was contemplating making a post like this before reading the spoilers for the new chapter, but some of the things said in that post have cinched it. I am getting extremely baffled by the whole needs moar strong wimmins trend I keep seeing in fandom (granted, there's nothing wrong with having new cool-looking girls, but this is a long-standing bit of logic), so I wanted to make a few observations about value judgments.



I planned some kind of introduction, but I think I'm just going to go down the line. I am drawing a bit from what I said in redbrunja's post here.

THIS IS NOT A CHARACTER BASHING POST. The point will become apparent by the end, if it's not already.

Specimen 1: The badass Gaara. Touted as being awesome and invincible, crushing power, super-charged demon-boy, insert more pwnsome descriptions here. Also: Lost every single battle except for the battle against Lee, and spent most of that battle being kicked around.
Specimen 2: The badass Orochimaru. A freaking uber-powerful Sannin. Surely one of the most powerful guys in the series, right, if not the most powerful figure in the first half? Also: Lost horribly, degenerated, got thoroughly owned multiple times. Fell into utter disgrace.
Specimen 3: The badass Uchiha Itachi. Omg, Itachi! He was so l33t! Graduated from the Academy at, what, six? Super-powerful criminal! Genius unparalleled! Also: Spent most of the series running around doing meaningless things, rarely ever fought, let alone won, died a horrible death and is currently being character-raped from beyond the grave, and before you point out what a genius he was for planning it all, I will say, pfft, why couldn't such a bad-ass genius have come up with something a little less roundabout?
Specimen 4: The badass Sasori. Another super-powerful criminal. Puppet guy. Poison-filled, covered in spikes. Complete ownage, I'm sure. Also: Appeared and died in the space of one friggin' battle. Hi, I'm Sasori. Oops, I'm dead.
Specimen 5: The badass Pein. Currently on his way to becoming Naruto's bitch. ER, I MEANT ON HIS WAY TO STEAL HIS KYUUBI, OBVIOUSLY. Also apparently FELL INTO A HOLE SOMEWHERE.
Specimen 6: The badass Uchiha Sasuke. Nowadays seen mostly screwing his life up more and acting inconsistent from week to week.
Specimen 7: The badass Uchiha Madara. Got his ass whooped by Hashirama and went crying to his mama. (No rhyme intended)

Now, you could say Hinata is weak, but at least her character has been consistent. You could say Sakura should be more of a star than she is, but at least she didn't appear and die in the space of a single battle. You could say Ino is a bit lame, but at least she wasn't touted as some awesome figure, only to lose every single battle she fought. None of them, as near as I can tell, are out running themselves into the ground, screwing their lives over, making themselves miserable, or doing many of the other ridiculous things that seem to accompany bad-assery in this series. Oh, and also, he's a male, but Shikamaru? Consistently the most even-keeled, most well-treated character, and the only bad-ass thing about him is his ability to formulate strategies.

BEFORE YOU GET ALL ANGRY: I should hope it's obvious that I'm being kind of satirical here. I don't ACTUALLY have a low opinion of ANY of the bad-ass mofo males discussed in this post. I QUITE LIKE PEIN/ITACHI/GAARA ET AL, as if my icons aren't some indication of this! And I am not ACTUALLY claiming Sakura/Ino/Hinata -- or any of the females -- are inherently better. I'm not claiming there is an inherently better. My POINT is that if this fandom is going to persist in using skills/bad-assery as a value judgment and a measuring stick for, I guess, both males and females (but there seems to be an especial fixation on "needs moar bad-ass females"), then by golly, I am going to point out how a lot of these awesome male characters either lost, got disgraced, lost and got disgraced, ruined themselves/made themselves unhappy, or any number of other things. I am not saying Hinata is better than Orochimaru! I am saying that if you tell me he has GOT to be better because he's powerful, then I'm going to argue that maybe she comes off looking better while living in her happy, quietly dignified way than being, I dunno, dead and having thoroughly screwed herself with crazy ambitions towards immortality?

I realize that Naruto is a shounen fighting series, so how well a character can fight can't be taken for granted. I also realize that no matter how well they can fight, it's not going to matter much when they fight Naruto, because he'll still figure out some way to win, since it's his series. And I also realize it doesn't matter much for most of them, anyway, because quite a lot of the most powerful characters are (quite frankly) just set up to lose and seem cool before doing it.

I don't excuse Kishi's awful tendencies with regards to gender, as much as this post may make it seem otherwise. Kishi's narrative does exhibit sexism and some really toxic ideas about female roles, but it also exhibits a good many toxic ideas about masculinity, too. All I'm saying is, jumping on the gotta have powerful (by a male value judgment, at that) grrrrrrrrrllllllssssss bandwagon, to my mind, also exhibits some seriously toxic ideas about gender. It's just placing one ideal above another -- in this case, the masculine/shounen ideal. I am NOT saying it's wrong to celebrate if we get more non-medic-nin females, or that it's cool of Kishi to make most of the girls medic-nins; yes, that's annoying. He deserves to be called on it. But on the other hand, if you're going to sit here and tell me all the ladies are useless and full of fail by one value judgment, I'm going to point out that there are other ways of looking at these matters, EVEN within the context of shounen values.

Now. Backlash?

Comments

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I mean, I'm not saying Kishi doesn't have his huge flaws with regards to gender -- though it does go both ways; seriously, I've discussed this elsewhere, but the guy seems to have some truly odd ideas about masculinity.

I guess my point is, there are different rubrics for judging the value of characters on the whole, and even if this is a shounen fighting series, I get a little sickened by people constantly acting like a character is worthless without some mad fighting skillz. Or especially the notion that Kishi's own masculine ideal is what the characters of this series necessarily should aspire to (sure, it's his series, but does anyone ever stop and question if maybe all this fighting is sort of dumb? what are they ultimately fighting for--the ability to fight more? I mean, I love Naruto, but c'mon, this logic breaks down!).

[toki-usagi.livejournal.com]

One other thing you have to take into account is the entire Japanese culture. Kishi grew up and lives in a world that is VERY male-dominant. In 50 years? Maybe not so much, but now? It's only just starting to to become a place where the gender roles are less well-defined.

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about Naruto. I'm too lazy to dig up the link now, but somewhere around here, paperninja and I were having a discussion about how disturbing it is that Sasuke -- ostensibly Kishi's masculine ideal -- is portrayed as being completely above needing/wanting women, whereas when characters like Naruto and Jiraiya actually show interest in girls, it's played up for comic relief. Same for Lee and Sakura, actually. As paperninja said: "There's some seriously WEIRD shit going on with regards to Kishi and masculinity."

I have to agree with this. Almost every single "cool", strong male character (Sasuke and Itachi are the first who come to mind) is portrayed as asexual and completely disinterested in women. Sasuke has repeated opportunities with women, and rejects them all. You could argue that he's gay, but he doesn't seem to show much interest in guys, either. It seems like Kishi has some (unintentional, I admit) subconscious bias where he thinks a guy is more cool/awesome if he is an I Walk Alone sort who is so great he can actually ignore all the people/women who show interest in him. Meanwhile, Naruto hits on girls, but again, for comic relief.

One thing I love about Kishi's drawings is that he usually doesn't sexualize his women, his manga isn't full of pointless horrible fanservice and putting the girls in humiliating sexual positions, no dumb panty shots, etc. The women also have a lot more realistic looking bodies (aside from Kishi's, er, occasional anatomy problems with both genders).

paperninja and I discussed this some, too; man, I really need to find that post. But yeah, I agree! I do think Kishi's work deserves to be analyzed and criticized with regards to gender, but one of the things I think he does do well is that, yes, the females are not overly sexualized. They are not objectified. They are not threatened with sexual violence (this may be because it's aimed at kids, but it is interesting to note) or rape. I can't really think of any scenes in which someone puts down Sakura/whoever for being a girl and she beats their ass in a cookie-cutter fashion (such things are so typical in a lot of series), and for that matter, I can't remember most/any of the characters, even the villains, disregarding the girls just because they're girls. I could be misremembering, but yeah. So while there's a lot wrong, there are also some positive things.

[twistedsheets10.livejournal.com]

Sasuke -- ostensibly Kishi's masculine ideal -- is portrayed as being completely above needing/wanting women

This most likely has its roots in Japanese culture itself. While Japan is inching its way to open-mindedness toward gender roles, women are still looked down upon, and those who appear to be overly needy/wanting women (excluding, possibly, their mothers) and publicly displays excessive affection for them, are viewed negatively. Good grief, didn't a Prime Minister got ridiculed for holding hands with his wife?

Also, I seem to recall that samurai/warrior culture had the same kind of belief.

[monstersexual.livejournal.com]

Oh god yes. Can I hug you? I was talking about this exact thing a day or so ago. I agree :D And after all, it is aimed at young boys after all.

I'm shallow.

[wolfie-thu.livejournal.com]

None of them, as near as I can tell, are out running themselves into the ground, screwing their lives over, making themselves miserable, or doing many of the other ridiculous things that seem to accompany bad-assery in this series.

Idk, I'd kind of like it if they were doing that, because fucked up yet extremely powerful female characters are hawt. And are a pretty rare thing in most canons. LOL, WHICH IS WHY I HAVE TO RESORT TO GENDER-SWAPPING FIC IF I WANT TO SEE THAT. MMMM, FEMALE AKATSUKI.

Re: I'm shallow.

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

WELL PEIN IS NOW ONE-SIXTH FEMALE. YOU MAY GET YOUR WISH.

Re: I'm shallow.

[wolfie-thu.livejournal.com]

PEIN/KONAN FEMMESLASH.

BRB, FAPPING.

[wolfie-thu.livejournal.com]

Oh god yes, that too. WOMEN DON'T ALWAYS CONSTANTLY THINK WITH THEIR POON.

I think it would help to just have more female characters in general (not only talking about Naruto here); then there'd be more room for variety. You could have the healers and the shy girls, but also the asskickers and fighters and some violent psychopathic female villains to round things out.
BUT THAT'S JUST MY CRAZY FANTASY.

[oceanica.livejournal.com]

Remember your main-character immunity! That will tend to skew badassery (see also: Star Wars and stormtroopers)

Specimen 1: The badass Gaara. Touted as being awesome and invincible, crushing power, super-charged demon-boy, insert more pwnsome descriptions here. Also: Lost every single battle except for the battle against Lee, and spent most of that battle being kicked around.

Except for when Dosu went and bugged him (or was that Zaku? I can't fucking keep those two straight) and in those battles during the Forest of Death phase of the chuunin exam. Also technically he won against Kimimaro, but it was TB that did the pwning, not him, so the point's still yours. There's main-character immunity at play for Gaara (accounting for his fights against Naruto and Sasuke, and quite possibly for Lee too), too. I would also point out that Gaara didn't spend most of that battle getting kicked around -- Lee spent a good portion of that battle kicking Gaara's kawarimi replacement.

Specimen 2: The badass Orochimaru. A freaking uber-powerful Sannin. Surely one of the most powerful guys in the series, right, if not the most powerful figure in the first half? Also: Lost horribly, degenerated, got thoroughly owned multiple times. Fell into utter disgrace.

Let's see... He won against Sarutobi (not without getting in kinda bad shape, but if you've ever looked at Sarutobi's stats in the databook, the geezer was a fucking badass in his own right), lost when he got double-teamed by Jiraiya and Tsunade (also Sannin, also badass, and Orochimaru's arms were out of commission), and then got pwned by Sasuke's post-timeskip godmodding. Not too shabby, overall.

Specimen 3: The badass Uchiha Itachi. Omg, Itachi! He was so l33t! Graduated from the Academy at, what, six? Super-powerful criminal! Genius unparalleled! Also: Spent most of the series running around doing meaningless things, rarely ever fought, let alone won, died a horrible death and is currently being character-raped from beyond the grave, and before you point out what a genius he was for planning it all, I will say, pfft, why couldn't such a bad-ass genius have come up with something a little less roundabout?

Let's see... pwned Kakashi, who is strong enough to be Tsunade's heir apparent, and then spent a long time being distantly menacing without really doing anything significant, mostly because it's hard to simultaneously evade the Sorting Algorithm of Evil and show your main character's growth through battles with his opponents. And again, got pwned by Sasuke's post-timeskip godmodding.

Specimen 4: The badass Sasori. Another super-powerful criminal. Puppet guy. Poison-filled, covered in spikes. Complete ownage, I'm sure. Also: Appeared and died in the space of one friggin' battle. Hi, I'm Sasori. Oops, I'm dead.

Er, check your facts. Sasori was introduced immediately after the Gaara vs. Deidara battle, and pwned Kankuro quite thoroughly. Also, went down thanks to double-teaming, again where at least one of the combatants was his equal or better (Chiyo and Sakura fighting as a team).

(LJ won't let me post my comment in one big bloc. I'll have to split it up)

[oceanica.livejournal.com]

Specimen 5: The badass Pein. Currently on his way to becoming Naruto's bitch. ER, I MEANT ON HIS WAY TO STEAL HIS KYUUBI, OBVIOUSLY. Also apparently FELL INTO A HOLE SOMEWHERE.

Well, considering he took out Jiraiya, he does seem pretty badass. We'll see how Naruto does against him. And yes, I think he fell into the same hole Kisame's in.

Specimen 6: The badass Uchiha Sasuke. Nowadays seen mostly screwing his life up more and acting inconsistent from week to week.

Would be more badass if he weren't a fucking idiot. Powerful, yes, but he's either a complete blithering gullible idiot, or he's playing things VERY close to the chest (...I can hope...)

Specimen 7: The badass Uchiha Madara. Got his ass whooped by Hashirama and went crying to his mama. (No rhyme intended)

Other than the WTFever he was doing up against Team Seven & Co, he hasn't seemed particularly badass. Mostly just a very expert manipulator.

I can see your point, but your satire would be better if it were closer to what actually happened.

Besides, isn't the whole point of Naruto that hard work > innate genius?

Anyway, my actual problem with your argument is that the females who tend toward badassery of the combat variety (Tsunae and Temari, for the most part; post-timeskip Sakura as well) also have other characteristics that I think are the ones that truly tend to get them labeled as being the "cool" female characters. For example, Hinata and Ino (and pre-timeskip Sakura) are PRIMARILY characterized by their crushes on male characters. Realistic for 12-year-old girls or not (and since when is ANYTHING in Naruto age-realistic?) it's irritating to a lot of fans, and generally characterizes them as being shallow and uninteresting. Especially with Hinata, since it kind of makes general-you wonder if she could really manage as a ninja at all, given that she faints whenever Naruto gets within five feet of her. It's more of an insulting caricature of femininity than anything else. The females who are "badass" are also independent, decisive, and tend to have good leadership qualities -- I don't think that's a "gotta have powerful (by a male value judgment, at that) grrrrrrrrrllllllssssss" mindset, that's "wow, those are actually desirable traits that make me like these characters."

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

I can see your point, but your satire would be better if it were closer to what actually happened.

Again: Hyperbole. My whole point was that you can take ANY character, amp up the negative, and give a seriously skewed view of them. You can observe that Gaara did beat Dosu, or Sasori did beat Kankurou, or Itachi/Orochimaru did do this interesting/cool thing . . . and you'd be right. But really, I wouldn't spend a lot of time debating those facts. That wasn't really my point. My point was not really about the individual facts. I'm not even saying those facts aren't important or that what I said here represents my real view of these characters (I thought I made it clear I didn't really view them this way). I'm saying I take issue with the other side being likewise skewed and one element being played up/amped up/overly focused on, and other individual facts likewise disregarded.



Anyway, my actual problem with your argument is that the females who tend toward badassery of the combat variety (Tsunae and Temari, for the most part; post-timeskip Sakura as well) also have other characteristics that I think are the ones that truly tend to get them labeled as being the "cool" female characters. For example, Hinata and Ino (and pre-timeskip Sakura) are PRIMARILY characterized by their crushes on male characters. Realistic for 12-year-old girls or not (and since when is ANYTHING in Naruto age-realistic?) it's irritating to a lot of fans, and generally characterizes them as being shallow and uninteresting. Especially with Hinata, since it kind of makes general-you wonder if she could really manage as a ninja at all, given that she faints whenever Naruto gets within five feet of her. It's more of an insulting caricature of femininity than anything else. The females who are "badass" are also independent, decisive, and tend to have good leadership qualities -- I don't think that's a "gotta have powerful (by a male value judgment, at that) grrrrrrrrrllllllssssss" mindset, that's "wow, those are actually desirable traits that make me like these characters."

Again, it's not that I disagree with this per se. It's that this wasn't really what my argument was about. I was responding to people who bash the female cast of Naruto based purely on what I perceive to be a very masculine ideal of strength. I am not -- nor was I intending to -- responding to the people who say, well, jeez, post-timeskip Sakura is a cool lady because she seems really self-actualizing. I'd agree with that, and I've said the same thing myself. There is a lot of toxic gender-politicking on both sides of the Naruto spectrum, in the canon and in the fandom, and that's what I intended to call attention to.

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

The minute Konan lost to Jiraiya, she was soundly bashed by fandom, even though Pein admitted he would've lost to Jiraiya as well, had he not kept his secret (whatever the hell he intended by that remark; assumedly the multiple bodies thing). Of course, Pein has been bashed for other reasons, but not for being weak. That's just one example, but really, I see this all the time. Girl loses. Girl is lame, accompanied by, "Man, I had such high hopes for her, as a girl character." I read a thread on the forums just last night about this very subject.

I wouldn't say that was all there was to Ino and Hinata, however. Ino was also a friend to Sakura, and while they were -- admittedly stupidly -- immaturely in a rivalry, she did show that she actually cared about her sometimes and they actually seemed to enjoy being rivals, much like Naruto and Sasuke. Hinata is very nice and supportive to all her friends, and yes, especially to Naruto -- positive qualities. No, she probably shouldn't be a ninja. But I wouldn't say she's a total waste of a person, either.

Male characters are also often characterized entirely by their relationships with other male characters. Sasuke is Itachi's world and his sole reason for doing everything. Sasuke is Naruto's obsession, and his motivation and goal. I have no idea if you personally think Naruto and Itachi are lame for investing so much in other characters; perhaps you do. But a lot of the fandom would tell you it's lame for Sakura to have pined away for Sasuke, or Ino for Sasuke, but that it's awesome when Naruto gives his all to Sasuke and Itachi does the same.

Personally, I like that Sakura has become more self-actualizing, and I do agree that it adds interest to her character. But I am also hesitant to say that there should be one singular ideal for what a woman (or a man) ought to be.

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

You're right about Sasori. I guess I forgot about the fight with Kankurou entirely since it lasted for about ONE PAGE (HYPERBOLE, PROBABLY; no, I'm not going to go look it up). Double-teaming is true, but it was double-teaming by an old woman and one of those allegedly not bad-ass enough girls again, so really, wouldn't that just make Sasori look even more lame, if held to the standard a lot of these characters are often held to in fandom?

Yes, Gaara did beat Dosu, and he killed some random nameless people no one cares about. Point for killing Dosu, but really, my overall point is that Gaara spent most of the manga either putting up a good fight and ultimate losing or winning but ultimately not really getting most of the glory. He did edge out that victory over Lee, but is there any doubt Lee stole the show? And he did put up a good fight against Deidara, but he still ultimately lost. I'm not saying this diminishes Gaara. That is the whole point.

Post-Sasuke godmodding is a fair enough thing to call it, and it's not that I don't agree (necessarily), but it's still what happened. Orochimaru spent the last half of the series being really lame-seeming, so much so that I actually felt sorry for the guy, and whether you think I took my arguments too far or not, there's no denying the silliness of scenes like Itachi and Kisame sitting around looking like they're meditating while not actually doing anything as near as I can figure. Most of the characters have been dragged through the mud at one point or another.

[000-hester-000.livejournal.com]

Mm, I see what you mean, but I guess I disagree with you about the gender thing. I don't think that the reason why Naruto's sexist is because, say, there are a lot of male geniuses (or more accurately, savants; Shikamaru is the only character that I think I would count as an honest-to-god genius, with the possible exceptions of Haku, Itachi, Orochimaru, Kabuto, and Pein, who are all also quite smart in addition to being abnormally powerful.) and a lot of females who have less spectacular abilities. Rather, I think it's because there are certain types of abilities that are randomly assigned to each gender. For instance, there are tons of female medics. And it's not that being a medic is somehow inferior-- they're probably the most valued type of ninja. Plus, being a medic means that you're able to control your chakra well. The thing is, I get pissy whenever the whole 'guys have powers that work better this way, and girls have powers that work better this way' thing shows up. For some reason, a lot of people think that the idea that women are somehow innately tuned in to nature/spiritual/holistic in a way that men aren't (and I do think this ties in with the healing) is feminist. And, uh, personally (and admittedly, this may be just me), I couldn't disagree more. Separate but equal never is. If women are tuned in to nature/emotions/whatnot, isn't that another way of saying that women are deficient in the understanding of science, technology, etc.? Or, in the case of Naruto, look at Sakura. I'm sure that, given how skilled she is in healing (remember the part with the antidote to Sasori's poison?), she really is also a savant. But, because her particular skill set doesn't happen to involve badass eyes, demonic possession, or... uh... skinning herself and making herself into a puppet, she gets little recognition.

I'm not saying that it's sexist if the girls aren't the most badass ever and don't win all the time. I'm sure that, realistically, Hinata's going to end up much better off in the end than, say, Deidara could ever have hoped for. But, all things being equal, I would expect that a series that has so many minor characters squeezed in there would find room for some female Deidaras and some male Hinatas. (The only equivalent to a girl-Deidara I can think of is two-tails girl, who would've been an interesting character if we had gotten to learn more about her.)

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

Those are entirely valid points. I'm starting to think I should've narrowed the focus of my original post a bit more, given some of the replies I'm receiving, but since it's there now, I'll try to qualify some things: Like I said, I agree with you a lot! It's not at all that I think Kishi doesn't deserve to be raked across the coals for repeatedly engaging in stereotyping, and the medic-nin business is a great example of that. My post was more aimed at people who -- on the opposite extreme -- only give a lady recognition if she is a super fighter. Now a lot of Naruto fandom, especially on chuunin, isn't always so bad about going extreme with this. As I've said before, we generally like and defend our women.

Even so, I still sometimes see people jumping all over the idea that there are just No Good Naruto Females or We Needs Moar Powerhouse Females. Although this was merely the straw that broke the camel's back and not the whole haystack, the spoilers post for chapter 417 is replete with comments indicating the kind of thinking I'm referring to: OH LOOK, WOMEN. I HOPE THEY ARE POWERFUL AND BAD-ASS. NO, PROBABLY THEY'RE JUST LAME (almost in the same sentence, even); YAY WE NEED MORE LIKE THAT. I am simplifying a bit and I agree; there could stand to be more male Hinatas and female Deidaras (to put it one way), but what I mostly take issue with is that if a female falls, it seems like she's immediately criticized harder+for being a female. Again, I used this example before, but when Konan lost to Jiraiya, I saw a lot of this kind of thing. Stuff like, "Jeez, and I had such high hopes that she was a strong female" -- which imho is still a little pre-emptive, since, y'know, Jiraiya. And other things.

Kishi definitely deserves criticism for stereotyping and being, yes, kind of sexist, but I don't think that excuses certain in-fandom biases either. It's a bit of a mixture of a problem, really. And for all my complaining here, I honestly do think Naruto fandom is, by and large, a lot more fair to the women than many fandoms are. It's just sometimes, I think it gets a little too carried away with certain things, and every time I see a female character I like getting utterly trashed like fuck for not being a good enough fighter, I cringe a little.

[000-hester-000.livejournal.com]

No, I can see that. And since you prepared yourself for the Ultimate Supah Backlash of fandom, Screw you, mangekyou sharingan, we all know where the most truly terrifying power lies I might as well do the same thing and say that a lot of it is just because fandom-- and this fandom in particular-- tends not to be very mature over all. (I suppose that's what you get for fangirling a series that was maimed and disfigured horribly, then put on Cartoon Network -.-)

Although, I can also see how a lot of the female characters really are disapointing, even if it isn't their own fault. Since such a big portion of the theme of Naruto-- and a lot of other shounen manga-- is the whole self-discovery/belief in yourself = key to unlocking awesome powers, it is frustrating that so few female characters get very far. If the shounen hero is able to gain ridiculous amounts of power simply by wanting it badly enough, then I guess it does follow that the reason why the female characters don't have that sort of power is that they're weak-willed. In other words, female readers want someone that they can relate to too, and the manga doesn't provide that. Admittedly, the frustration would be better directed at Kishi than random fictional girls, but hey...

Gah, I'm sorry if this probably doesn't make sense; I'm, like, half-asleep right now.

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

If the shounen hero is able to gain ridiculous amounts of power simply by wanting it badly enough, then I guess it does follow that the reason why the female characters don't have that sort of power is that they're weak-willed.

Maybe, but on the other hand, Lee wants to become a better ninja more than anyone else does -- arguably even Naruto, and he never gets the kind of power that many of the other characters do, either. Really, let's not dick around. Naruto's Kyuubi is a pretty big asset to him winning, especially when his life is on the line. Notably, I would say a good many of the female characters don't seem all that interested in Being the Best. Sakura seems interested in being strong enough to help her friends, but she doesn't seem to want to be the world's greatest kunoichi. Ino and Hinata just seem to go with the whole ninja thing because it's what's expected of them.

Temari seems like more of a hardcore born-and-bred ninja (but remember -- she is older, and she's from Sunagakure; they generally seem a little more hardcore all the way around), but Temari doesn't seem to have aspirations of Being the Best or rising to Kage level, either. Nor does Shikamaru. Really, a great many of the characters, both male and female, have rather down to Earth ambitions, and I don't think that's a bad thing. Temari seems interested in helping her village; protecting it, and doing the missions she has to do. Sakura seems interested in protecting those who are precious to her (same for Naruto). Hinata and Ino, well, who knows; Hinata at one point wanted to prove something to herself, but now that she has proven it to herself, she seems fairly content, and Ino seems like she's still figuring out what she wants, so again, who knows.

Even Tsunade really had no interest in being Kage, initially. The only characters aside from the villains who truly seem to want to be On Top (as ninja) are Naruto, Lee, and possibly Sasuke, though more because of Itachi than for any other reason. I wouldn't say the girls are inherently more weak-willed. Some of them honestly seem to be going into the whole ninja thing just because it's what society expects of them, but then, what about characters like Kiba and especially Shikamaru and Chouji? By the same token, Shikamaru doesn't want to be there/is lazy, Chouji doesn't want to be there, and Kiba/Chouji don't advance all that far (Shikamaru, by some standards, does), but they seem fine with themselves.

The one exception who readily comes to mind is Tenten. She really does seem driven, for her own reasons, to become a talented/powerful kunoichi, and the manga pretty much utterly disregards her. Kishi's bad, for sure.

[000-hester-000.livejournal.com]

Dammit, I think I just forgot the basis for the entire series. I'm sorry, Kyuubi. D: Although, I guess I can't help but think that (and I'm pretty sure Yamato already said something of the sort?) it's going to turn out that Naruto also has some sort of intrinsic power that's equal to or greater than the kyuubi's. It just hasn't shown up yet because of the greatest power of all, the power of the convenient plot device.

I guess I would still say that Naruto has... I don't even know what to call it, personality benefits, I guess, even if what they influence isn't his level of power. His random 'I now have the power to become friends with pretty much anybody' power gives him I sort of social safety net that the other jinchuuriki don't enjoy. The Hidden Sand leaders didn't seem to give a damn about Gaara (except for the ways in which his abduction would cause them trouble), and the only reason why his life was saved was because Naruto and co. became involved. (So I think it's safe to think that, assuming that Chiyo's jutsu can be replicated, if Pein does just go and pwn Naruto, there'll be somebody willing to lay down their own life to bring him back. No, Hinata, don't do that!)

Also, due to your Pein iconness, you are now officially Pein-chan.

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

HAHA. I have other icons besides my Pein icons! XD; I do overuse my Pein-fault icon, however, because his WTF expression works for all occasions.

There is something to what you said about Naruto having a social safety net. I actually like that idea, and I think if there's a positive message in him managing to win a lot, that could actually be a good one. He has a lot of friends who back him up; you know that even if he gets in a jam, he has the back-up of either the Kyuubi, and/or the other villagers. And yes, I'm kind of wondering about that intrinsic power bit. That is, I wonder if Kishi will actually go through with it, even after sticking the idea out there. Short of the Kyuubi's power, I really have no idea how Naruto could beat Pein.

Then again, there is probably some "trick" to beating Pein. It's already been hinted at. Madara likely knows said trick, and that's how he keeps him in tow.

[000-hester-000.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I needed to sleep.

To be honest, I think I cried a little when the idea that Naruto had more power beyond the kyuubi came up. (And also when I finally realized that he was the Fourth's son.) I liked it better when I was honestly able to think that he was useless outside of that, because it made the whole manga interestingly screwed up. I'm going to save the world with the power of friendship! And also the power of this crazy demon the wants to eat you all! I mean, I like what little I've seen of Minato and Kushina character-wise, but I'm not going to be happy when/if we get the revelation that he inherited a ton of random power from his parents.

Also, if that does turn out to be the case, doesn't that pretty much trash what was up until now one of the main morals of the whole series, namely the idea of free will? If Naruto is powerful because he learned to control the kyuubi's chakra and harness it towards positive goals, then that's a good thing. But a lot of the characters who were simply born with abnormal amounts of power are pretty screwed up. Look at Itachi. As far as the subject of free will goes, he really never had any; his whole life is pretty much predetermined simply because of what family he was born into. So taking that and turning it around and saying that somehow inherited powers have hurt him and Neji and quite a few other, but will randomly benefit Naruto seems... strange to me.

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

But do the characters actually "inherit" powers in Naruto? I mean, aside from stuff like the Byakugan; even the Sharingan has to actually be activated. Sure, most clans have their special jutsu, but those are passed down by the clans. Naruto is learning his father's jutsu, but that's because Jiraiya taught it to him. He would've never picked up the Rasengan, otherwise. I don't see anyone complaining that Jiraiya showed Naruto favouritism due to his former friendship with Minato. Not, mind you, that I think people should complain, but if you want to talk about points in Naruto's favour . . .

[000-hester-000.livejournal.com]

...Actually, that's an interesting question. It seems like something that happens a fair deal irl, eg. whole families of writers, but who knows how close to reality the Narutoverse is in that respect. I quite hope that you're right, and that any new powers Naruto gets will have to be ones he learns for himself. It's just that I can see it so easily happening that Naruto has inherited some amazing ancestral powers simply because of who he's related to. I liked him better when he was just a random kid with no pre-existing ties to anyone.

Although, to be fair, if he has to get some incredibly badass powers outside of the kyuubi's, his getting them due to-- in some form or other-- his parents is definitely preferrable to to him just suddenly showing up with them for no reason, in which case I really would cry.

Also, lol at how OT we've gotten. Actually, do you mind if I friend you? I like people I can argue about completely pointless things with. XD

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

Lol, hell no. New friends are always welcome. I will have to reply to the rest of this later, though, as I'm about to run off for an exam.

Edit: The hell no being to "Do you mind?". XD;

[amaiko.livejournal.com]

Hinata at one point wanted to prove something to herself, but now that she has proven it to herself, she seems fairly content

Mmm, don't know about that--in her profile in the databook that just came out, she's now listing her "People She Wants to Fight" as her father and Neji. So apparently she's still striving to push herself higher...though it would be nice, if, say, Kishi started using his secondary characters again and actually showed this in the actual manga instead of just leaving it as a side note in the databook. But given the way the manga's been lately, I'm not holding my breath.


The one exception who readily comes to mind is Tenten. She really does seem driven, for her own reasons, to become a talented/powerful kunoichi, and the manga pretty much utterly disregards her. Kishi's bad, for sure.

I've heard--and I have no idea how true this is, because the person saying it didn't give any hard evidence, i.e, link to an interview where it was stated--that Kishi had outright said that Tenten was created solely as a "filler" character, because he needed a girl for Team Gai to keep to the "two male, one female" makeup he has for the teams.

Given the way Tenten's almost completely ignored in the manga, I could easily see her being created to just be slapped into place to fill a role and nothing more. Then again, Kishi has definitely stated before that his favorite female character is Anko, and look at what a huge role she's played. *eyeroll*

[kyandii-holic.livejournal.com]

I like almost all female characters in Naruto and I find rather immature that they're taken in consideration only as pairing material or worse as "bitches tearing my OTP apart". Still they need alot more characterization and action, excluding Sakura in shippuuden arc, they usually fit the role of sidekick or "awesome male character's crush/fangirl".
I'm sure that seeing them fight seriously would increase both their fandoms and plot originality, I haven't seen a <>good kuonichi fighting scene since forever and some of them have badassery levels even superior than their males counterparts (Konan FTW!)

I have to admit I fancy way more male characters for many reasons and I love the fact that they're imperfect and eventually lose. I get easily tired of "holy" main characters or "super villains", I like to see human characters with all the flaws, the habits, the bruises one may develop. Emotionless, sarcastic, loony... it's just another way of depriving them of their "fictional character" status.
Obviously most fans don't get it, in their eyes they're still "omg so purfect!11" but I'm fine either way.

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

I'm sure that seeing them fight seriously would increase both their fandoms and plot originality, I haven't seen a <>good kuonichi fighting scene since forever and some of them have badassery levels even superior than their males counterparts (Konan FTW!)

See, and I think pondering on some of these dynamics goes back to bits of what inspired my post. Because I kind of agree that, in a sense, Konan seems to be "superior" to Pein, but in certain respects -- not superior in that, like, she's physically superior or she pushes him down and steps on him with her stilettos, which is what I feel like a lot of the fans who jumped on the idea of A Female Akatsuki member wanted to see. More that, to me, she seems to have more forbearance; she seems like the kind of character who could more easily endure suffering without literally snapping and killing everyone.

However, the ability to endure gracefully is a more traditionally feminine mode of power (a la Hester Prynne), whereas the ability to triumph and conquer is a more traditionally masculine mode of power (a la . . . various figures throughout history). Is one inherently superior/more valued? I admit, I've always inclined towards preferring the first. I tend to be more responsive to women -- and sometimes men -- who "endure" rather than "triumph" (actually, one thing I kind of respond to with regards to Itachi, on the male side of things). Is this just my own heteronormative culture impressing such ideals upon me, that I think this way? Who knows. It's definitely a sticky subject. And in a shounen series like Naruto, triumph is going to count for a lot to a lot of fans.

[rainejoybringer.livejournal.com]

I always have the same discussion about characters with a friend of mine. We never get anywhere, simply because in the end all we realise is that the entire series revolves around Naruto and Golden Boy Sasuke. Everyone else will lose their battles, but Naruto and Sasuke will scrape by and seem like they struggle. Kishimoto is a very deceptive storyteller and quite known for his red herrings.

As for sexism, well... it's a series for young boys really. If there's a reason for girls in shounen series, it's either of two things - body jokes and to give someone the male character can rescue.

It's sad. But I've come to notice that if you look at the females more in-depth, the sexism is even worse. Please excuse me while I rant just for my own sake.

~Even though we may say Temari is a strong female character, it's more true to call her a "stronger than the other girls". How many males in the series have we seen her beat up so far? She didn't even go out to save her own brother.

~Tsunade beat up Orochimaru, sure, but there will always be a punching bag anyone can get at. In combination with Sakura, they have personal failings with their emotions. Sakura will likely freeze up every time she sees Sasuke. And even Tsunade was somewhat helpless in the face of her past with Dan and her little brother, allowing her to be beat up by Kabuto. They're also relegated to the role of healer, a stereotypical feminine role. Granted, Sakura has grown since her initial days, but it feels a little forced if she got left behind whilst Sai was introduced.

~Ino, Hinata, Tenten, Karin... Ignored. Ino is simply a rival for Sakura (who would be in the same category as Temari as "stronger than other girls"). Hinata gets all woozy over Naruto yet he is oblivious (a cliche). Tenten is unfortunately a filler whose last name we don't even know. As for Karin, just another Sasuke fangirl, and we only just found out her power was to let people bite her. Lovely.

~Konan, poor girl. I feel she is somewhat going to have something in common with Yugito. They both have their powers shown off in one frame, then they get beaten down by some men (Hidan and Kakuzu for Yugito, and Konan basically got rendered useless by Jiraiya in a second). Also, Konan is loyal to Pain. She may be strong, but because of her place next to Pain, she will just be seen as subservient to him.

[rainejoybringer.livejournal.com]

And just to clarify, I do love the females of Naruto (I've cosplayed Tsunade, Sakura and Temari to date, lol). I dunno... Maybe this is just something I dislike in manga story-telling in general. I'm a huge fan of mahou shoujo series, and they suffer the exact opposite of shounen series. =/

[paperninja.livejournal.com]

I agree that the idea that strong (ie: worthy and interesting) female characters must be aggressive, dominant, proactive, courageous, etc to be worth anything is messed up. Quiet, shy, passive, submissive etc male characters are not ripped at this way by the fandom. And hellz yes is there some toxic gender stuff going on there, I agree.

But I'm not too angry at the fandom either. I don't like it, it's always a drag and a half to see internalized misogyny in- frankly- a significantly female audience. (I'm assuming for expediency that the readership of this comm tends to skew towards the fanfic-writers/readers, who tend to be mostly female.) But I understand where it's coming from. It's reaction formation, to begin with. That is: when something is crammed down your throat (ie: being sweet, mindless, passive, subservient) and you're like, you know, a full human being with a full personality that doesn't really appreciate that bullshit idea of what you HAVE to be like? It's natural to direct your anger about it AT people who fufil the stereotype. Women are also taught by Ye Old Sexist Society to take out their rage at having their humanity denied on one another. So if you're tired of having the bullshit feminine ideal crammed down your throat, it's natural (and you're helpfully guided by society) to simmer with repressed anger at traditionally feminine women who comply with the bullshit standard.

I don't think there's anything wrong with writing some girls who are quiet and gentle. Girls are, after all, y'know, HUMAN BEINGS. They can come in all personality variants. You can have loud ones and quiet ones and dominant ones and submissive ones and the whole rainbow of human personality. The REAL problem is, as usual, the toxic gender roles that force-fed to everyone. (Yes, as usual, I blame society! For everything! :D)

That said, as you and I discussed, Kishi doesn't really try that hard to write girls who actually ARE human beings rather than cardboard stereotypes. He tries a bit, but he either can't or doesn't bother to think it all the way through. His male characters are similarly locked into a strange framework of gender ideas, in particular that 'I Walk Alone' thing we discussed.

There's also the fact that Naruto is, as many others have mentioned, a shounen fighting series. It seems like all these shounen things are really really really focused on their activity (fighting, collecting pokemon, etc) as THE BEST THING EVER. So since it's a fighting show, therefore FIGHTING IS EVERYTHING and YOUR ENTIRE LIFE IS ABOUT FIGHTING and ZOMG THE MORE YOU FIGHT (AND WIN :D) THE MORE MANLY MANLY MANLY-MAN YOU ARE! WINNAR IS YOU! So on. And lots of those people have also talked about how ridiculous this is outside the plot logic of the series itself. I don't know about you, but I managed to get through my entire life so far without giving a fuck if I caught a single pokemon. :p But since the entire show is about FIGHTING and the only activity worth anything is FIGHTING, it does invite the viewer to say HAY WHY ARE THE GIRLS NOT FIGHTING DAMNIT? You set up a (irrelevant) activity as the golden standard of all awesome, and then you systematically exclude all the girls from it? That's political as hell, even if it is just mindlessly repeating the free-floating sexism in society.

And it's a fair question. Passive sexism like Kishi's (where he does not display active hatred, but still seems to assume that girls are mostly on the sidelines of life either cheerleading or helping, but never actually having adventures for themselves) is really NOT something we need in our mindless cartoon entertainment. But even the way we think about girls and boys is fucked right up because our society is fucked right up about gender, and it's busily been cramming all that fucked-upness into our heads all our lives. Wheee.

PS: I'm a bigass evil feminist and everything, I love Hinata and Sakura both. If you actually think about it and treat Hinata like an actual person rather than a smiling personality-free nurturebot, softer characters like this are very interesting. We've also discussed why Sakura brings the awesome to the yard. :D

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

I like your view (as usual). It's very well-balanced. Admittedly, my own view is probably skewed by the fact that in as much as I have fun reading Naruto, I've never really bought into its value system, even from an in-universe perspective. As I think I said somewhere above, it's like, dude, what are they fighting so hard for? The ability to fight more? Because for all Naruto's talk of wanting to bring peace and be Hokage, is there any doubt that "peace" would kill his series? I read the series because I find the friendships/connections/relationships to be interesting, since there are so many of them, but I can never quite get into the artificial value placed on THAT kind of power. And in fact, when I do like powerful characters, my main interest in them is primarily focused on how a lot of them have led really shitty lives, in spite of their immense power. That latter point is a part of what inspired some of the things I said in this post and it's too bad the series never actually plays this fact up more.

I can't think of any truly quiet/shy male characters in Naruto offhandedly, but in a lot of fandoms I've seen or been in, those are, interestingly, some of the most fangirled males. And I know if I were a few years younger, maybe 16 or so, I'd be all up in that shit and probably making the same kind of judgments that FEMALES NEED TO FIGHT MOAR, because I remember my 16-year-old self and that kind of attitude was a big deal to me, since I only knew how to value that sort of pro-active shit, but then later, I decided I was kind of Identifying with the Oppressor, as they call it, and letting go of some preconceived notion that either gender HAS to do anything has made me a lot more receptive to fictional characters on both sides. Still, I kinda agree that yeah, Kishi deserves to be called on his passive sexism. I'm not sure there's a perfect solution, but I do wish the fandom would talk more about the positive qualities of a lot of the girls that have NOTHING to do with fighting. And I guess some people in this fandom do, at least on this community.

I dunno. Is it heretical of me to admit that I LOVE nurturing females, even if that is kind of a Gender Norm? I liked Mikoto for all of the brief time she appeared, because she was that sort of pretty, nurturing . . . and, well, DEAD mother type. XD; I like that Sakura wants to take care of and protect her friends. I like that Temari wants to make things right with Gaara. I like Tsunade's softer side. And I know some people were really annoyed that Konan seems to take up for Pein a lot, but I liked her even more for that. XP I think it's just because I personally find it more endearing/interesting, generally, when a character does have someone they take care of and care deeply for, and the same is true with regards to how I feel about males! It's why I prefer Naruto and his desire to make bonds to Sasuke's "I WAAALLLKKKK ALONE"-ness (which seems like it's back to varying from week to week), why I liked Jiraiya, and Obito, and why Minato is one of my favourite dead characters. XD; Because he loved so much that it eventually led to his death! And that kind of sacrifice for others always gets me. Probably, it'd get me a lot with Itachi, too, if it weren't so over-the-top and dumbly portrayed/executed in canon. (And really, you have no idea how much it peeves me that Itachi's actions WERE manhandled so much, because I think his story could be extremely touching if it made a damn bit more SENSE XP)

[paperninja.livejournal.com]

Considering how completely illogical and inconsistent that value system can be, not buying into it is a very good idea. XD There really is no clear point to all the fighting. Fight and fight and MOAR fight for... more fighting! :D Logically, Naruto's ideal of peace would be constructed more as loyalty to one's family and friends (or surrogates of such like your village). This wouldn't interfere with all the fighting and fighting and fighting since there's always random nasties out there coming to mess with you and your friends, family, etc. But even trying to sort out the inconsistencies is like trying to impose a adult perspective on stuff for kids like Superman comics, you end up with really weird conclusions.

I think we may share that interest in characters who are paradoxically powerful and yet also sort of profoundly messed up, lost, etc. :D I'm pretty much writing a whole original series about just that. It's something I've always found a LOT more interesting than the simple power fantasy of being THE strongest, smartest, prettiest, best all at once, and this character's only problem being that the rest of the world is a mess and they are all alone in their perfection and so misunderstood by their grubby inferiors. Or somesuch. I would say that we as an effed-up society have some profoundly effed-up ideas about power too. (And I'll stop here before I start ranting about the dominator paradigm, objectivism, etc... XD)

I remember reading on fanthropology that male characters of all varieties get cut a TREMENDOUS amount of slack in comparison to female characters- who essentially can never do anything right in the eyes of the fandom. And I went through that whole mindset you mention when I was 13-15ish as well too. I think it's almost unavoidable given that you're being both sandbagged with puberty on one hand, and then hammered by society since teenage girls are the social symbol of ultimate sexual ideal, therefore ultimate sexual object, therefore EVIL SLUT, therefore MUST BE CONTROLLED, therefore FOCUS OF RAGE for every asshole with issues about sex and/or women (this group is legion). So... I really really can't blame girls for stockholm syndrome and just reacting badly like any other human being would under that kind of abuse. Annoying, yes. Understandable? HELL YES.

And my view is that there's really nothing wrong with being a traditional female (or traditional male). It's just the idea that your personality MUST fit into this little box EXACTLY, that ALL humans must fit into one of these two very teeny limited boxes and that which one you must fit into is decided by your biological sex.

[paperninja.livejournal.com]

There's lots of problems with this. Even the premise that all humans come in two factory-set genders is false- given that there are XXY people out there, and transgendered people and gay or bisexual people who may want to be butch or femme regardless of their gender.. or even their sexuality given that you can be a butch straight girl or a femme straight guy, really. There's absolutely no reason you CAN'T be any kind of person and take any kind of gender identity you want. The only reason we are told NO NO NO about this is that our society is really really terrified of people NOT conforming exactly to those two very small gender boxes. The socially manufactured extreme fear and loathing of all things feminine is part of the control mechanism to shove everyone back in their little box.

But actually wanting to be nurturing and gentle and to wear pretty clothes and bake cookies is totally fine. Wanting to drive a pickup truck and drink beer and watch football and buy power tools is pretty much fine too. It's not the personality traits that are bad, it's the enforced gender role. There's absolutely nothing wrong with liking traditionally feminine girls, they've got the same right to be traditionally feminine as any other girl or guy out there. :D

*Big fan of Mikoto here too. :D She was a lot smarter than her husband, that's for sure. The Uchiha clan wouldn't be in the mess it's in now if she'd been running it.*

And really, having emotions and caring for other people shouldn't make you hateful and yucky and weak and ewww and all of that anyway. It should make you an actual person. Since people have emotions. And people have other people they care about. We're social monkeys and having emotions and caring for others is kind of what we do.

...and wow, don't get me started at how illogical the canon writing is and how good ideas are just pasted in and then totally not developed or used or anything. XDDDD I really do hope we get some kind of logical and considered conclusion to Itachi's story. BUT NOT HOLDING MY BREATH HERE. :/

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