Chuunin - A Naruto Community

That's probably a good and accurate real-world summary of how trauma functions for most people. Since this story takes place in a world of jutsu and weird eye techniques, I have to wonder if that makes things somewhat different in Naruto-land. I mean, could Nagato's black-out have come from the rinnegan? I really don't know.

I suppose it's just as possible that the orphans simply lost all hope in the world and detached from that. That's just as likely, really, and both would probably be forms of coping.

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senior-witch.livejournal.com

Maybe you are right, and things are different in Naruto-land. On the other hand, the reason why I personally like "Naruto" is because in spite of all the phantastic jutsus, Kishimoto is quite realistic and accurate when it comes to psychology. Just today I read an article about kids and teenager who get into a "criminal career" and the psychological reasons, and there I found a quote that reminded me of the first chapter of "Naruto"...

"Not recognizing another person in the context of a close relationship (as when the very parents, or the persons who have to care for a child don't recognize the child - my addition) is maybe the worst insult and humiliation that a human being can experience."

As I said, it's rather personal, everyone loves "Naruto" for different reasons, and I love it because Kishimoto is quite realistic when it comes to the effects of suffering and pain and loneliness and, well trauma, and I hope that he remains realistic and gives us differentiated explanations.

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Interesting theory ::sits and ponders:: The theory of Pein being some sort of parasitic conscious using Nagato as a "host" has been one I've found interesting for a while now. especially given the puppet like nature of the multiple bodies

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Parasitic consciousness? I hadn't heard that one. I'd be inclined to think it's some alien side of Nagato . . . his dark side, as it were (to explain it in a totally lame way, guh :F), mostly because I think if Pein were actually someone besides Yahiko or Nagato, Konan wouldn't be so supportive.

It is curious, though, because Pein does seem like a broken, adult version of Nagato who grew up with a few screws loose, but he also at times demonstrates that he still knows/remembers his human side/childhood, such as when he talks about his memories of Jiraiya or, as in the recent chapter, when he greets Tsunade. It's kind of interesting, because if not for scenes like that, he wouldn't seem like a human consciousness at all, to me.

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Assuming Konan knows. So many possibilities! ::pulls at hair::

my ULTIMATE speculation? Kishimoto's making it up as he goes along ^_~

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AHAHA. I think Kishi is making up the whole manga as he goes along. Like, he just randomly decided to add Sasuke so Naruto would have a rival. Then oh, Sasuke needed some depth, so he randomly added the Uchiha stuff. Then oh, he didn't like Oro anymore, so have Akatsuki and Madara instead. Ye~eah.

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not to mention . Hoe do I make Naruto learn faster "I know! You learn what your clones do wheeee!"

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The theory of Pein being some sort of parasitic conscious using Nagato as a "host" has been one I've found interesting for a while now.

That's a really neat idea. I wrote a bit about something similar- the character speculating about how Pein proper may be some kind of metaphysical entity like a demon or whatever, or a kind of artificial consciousness created by the rinnegan (and whatever it does to the guy's head... this stuff gets metaphysical REAL QUICK when you think about it.) But the idea of a parasitic consciousness seems slightly different. Also intriguing.

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getting metaphysical in relation to Naruto, seems kinda wrong doesn't it? ::goes back to pondering and puffing on her bubble pipe::

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I guess it does. But I kind figure... if I'm already writing teh buttsmex? Or characters from a cartoon series having all kinds of uncanonical relationships? I'm already in Wrongville and I may as well really go nuts.

It's srsly Kishi's fault for using all that transmigration stuff in the first place.

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true true true

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Sorry for probably incoherentness; half asleep, etc. etc.

Mm, I could see that, especially since I think in a weird way it works in with him thinking he's a god. In a lot of traditions, altered states of consciousness are considered a higher form of existence. Irl, they're mostly considered abnormal and temporary (and usually linked to something specific, like you mentioned with the trauma), but you could say that, in the Narutoverse at least, there are also some that are more permanent. In Hindu tradition, the second-highest state of consciousness is one-pointedness, where your mind is entirely focused on one thing; above that is a complete dissolution of consciousness. So, assuming it's something like that, that would at least explain his behavior. And if it's due to some experience and not the rinnegan, then the same thing could also be true of Konan. Otherwise, she just has a really flat affect, I guess...?

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(What the heck is in your icon? I keep staring at it, but I can't tell...)

You bring up a really good point. That would explain the "godly" ramblings. It'd also fit with the theme of rebirth/the rinnegan, and the six Buddhist paths and all that cosmology business. Though it's also possible Nagato is just extremely depressed. He seemed like a deeply depressed kid and he never got any kind of treatment for it. Depression can of course worsen from sadness to complete detachment.

But the rinnegan -- the way it seems to ripple outwards -- kind of makes me think of a consciousness spiraling outwards. Which also fits with one consciousness expanding to six bodies. But Pein just fricking looks like someone who is in a daze, to me, so. I dunno.

And if it's due to some experience and not the rinnegan, then the same thing could also be true of Konan. Otherwise, she just has a really flat affect, I guess...?

Could be. And they live together and presumably share ideas, so it'd make sense for her to take on aspects of his personality. Though I think Konan is still somewhat less detached. She looked downright sad when Jiraiya was criticizing her, and sometimes you can see compassion on her face re: Pein. She is pretty detached in general, though. Hmm.

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It's a guy's back with a lotus (maybe? I'm no good at identifying flowers) on it.

That would explain the "godly" ramblings.

I just really want there to be an actual reason for that. God complex issues show up way too often in manga antagonists. Thinking you're a god must be really contagious.

Speaking of the way the rinnegan looks, am I the only one who was deeply disappointed by anime!rinnegan? It looks like he has some sort of eye infection. Ew, pink eye. Not godly.

He does seem dazed; maybe it has something to do with having his consciousness being so scattered. I wonder if he would be more normal if he had less bodies? Or if he gets more spacey the further his bodies go away from one another? Maybe Nagato!Pein isn't like that, since he's the original. And, you know, presumably not a reanimated corpse.

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Speaking of the way the rinnegan looks, am I the only one who was deeply disappointed by anime!rinnegan? It looks like he has some sort of eye infection. Ew, pink eye. Not godly.

I don't like how he looks in the anime in general. I assume the silvery grey skin is just a byproduct of him sitting out beneath the overcast sky, and not his actual anime skin-tone, but now a bunch of artists are colouring him with silvery grey skin -- and it looks ridiculous, especially when combined with the orange-red hair. Gah. /Rant.

Maybe Nagato!Pein isn't like that, since he's the original. And, you know, presumably not a reanimated corpse.

I should really make a Pein Theory Bingo Card and see how many of these theories I turn out to be right about (it'd be sad if I were wrong about EVERY ONE :F), but you know, I still think the Nagato body is in a coma. It'd again go with the whole blacking-out business, and it'd explain something of his trauma. He doesn't seem to want anyone to find his Nagato body and even said if Jiraiya had discovered his secret, he would have lost to him, so I get the sense it is the weakest link.

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Maybe the animators just took the whole corpse thing to heart? Pein/anyone is now a necro ship. :| That would look pretty ridiculous, though.

I still think the Nagato body is in a coma.

You will now write strange, Sleeping Beauty-ish Pein/Konan fanfic based on this. ~~Or Madara/Pein for laughs.~~

I want to know if he plans on assimilating the dead Akatsuki members. Admittedly, most of them aren't exactly in mint condition, but what about Itachi? Or does Zetsu also snack on his coworkers? But just imagine how much Itachi!Pein would trip out Sasuke. I'd kinda actually feel bad for him then.

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You will now write strange, Sleeping Beauty-ish Pein/Konan fanfic based on this.

I . . . I kind of already wrote that. Well, not the Sleeping Beauty thing, but the coma -- sdhdsg. AGH NO MADARA/PEIN. I'mma be sad when canon fucks my shit up. I just know it.

I don't think his bodies are dead-dead. They're animated. They probably are fully functional. I doubt they're totally cold and corpse-ish or anything. But idk, rly.

I want to know if he plans on assimilating the dead Akatsuki members. Admittedly, most of them aren't exactly in mint condition, but what about Itachi? Or does Zetsu also snack on his coworkers?

Well, Madara ran off with Itachi ~~to rape him~~ . . . Sasori is a puppet, Deidara is blown up, Hidan is just a head, Kakuzu was pretty fucked up, too . . . no, I doubt he plans on assimilating them. I just kind of assume Zetsu ate Itachi, actually, which is sort of pathetic/sad and somehow hilarious at the same time. Either that or Madara is holding Itachi's body hostage to sex up that corpse.

I found it kind of interesting that Pein mourned Deidara and advocated mourning him. I don't know if that was just thrown in randomly or what, but you'd have thought someone like Deidara would've simply annoyed him.

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Your icon is making me have lolseizures.

For the record, I don't think they're dead dead either. But who knows.

Maybe that's the final secret of Naruto: Madara rapes everything. How does the rinnegan work? Madara raped it. Will Kakashi be okay? Only if Madara rapes him. What happens to Sasuke? Well, we saw that one coming anyway. I kinda had the same thought about Itachi's body, though. The question of what he's doing with it bothers the hell out of me. I'm mad at Itachi though for going through this whole, incredibly difficult and labor-intensive plan to insure Sasuke's future, then not trying to do something to see to it that Sasuke would get his eyes. Moron should have had a donor card.

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gorious.livejournal.com

I found it kind of interesting that Pein mourned Deidara and advocated mourning him. I don't know if that was just thrown in randomly or what, but you'd have thought someone like Deidara would've simply annoyed him.

Pain also got a bit pissy when Kisame joked about Hidan and Kakuzu's deaths. It might be that disrespecting dead comrades is a bit of a sensitive subject with Pain in general~~, what with the whole Yahiko thing~~.

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Oh, lol, no worries about butting in. It's a public post, yeah? Thanks for reminding me of that, though. I think I must have missed that part. You're probably right about that. Pein seems to have a certain kind of respect toward his dead co-workers, even those who apparently annoyed the heck out of him.

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what with the whole Yahiko thing.

That does seem to be the best explanation for it. He's supposed to be emotionless and ruthless, after all. And yet there he is, showing respect to even Hidan, who was pretty rude to him at one point.

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I don't think his bodies are dead-dead. They're animated. They probably are fully functional. I doubt they're totally cold and corpse-ish or anything. But idk, rly.

Am I the only person who thinks this would be a pretty key point? There's just the pairing/smexytiem problem of him being... yeah, cold, having no heartbeat, no body heat, NO BLOOD PRESSURE, PEOPLE. I'm sure I don't have to spell out how that's going to make pairing up the character for some hot smexors with other character of your choice kinda... less fun than it should be.

There's also the issue of how he keeps the bodies from decaying if they're DEAD-dead and have no immune system to keep bacteria from, y'know, breaking them down.

I'm sure it's all some magical chakra thing that Kishi handwaves and maybe no one's a big enough bio nerd to even think about this stuff... but like a big geek, I do. xD Best explanation imo for slash purposes would probably be that the bodies are in some kind of twilight state where the original 'owner' (whether you want to call that a soul or whatever) has 'died', but the body still lives in some biological sense. Or limited sense. Dunno.

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but now a bunch of artists are colouring him with silvery grey skin --

....you're kidding me.

He doesn't seem to want anyone to find his Nagato body and even said if Jiraiya had discovered his secret, he would have lost to him, so I get the sense it is the weakest link.

I've been thinking MOAAR about this one. It seems like there may be no easy way of locating where the Nagato body is, unless you can trance the chakra signal. Shizune had lab equipment (presumably) to allow her to tell that the piercing was transmitting, but someone in the heat of battle may not have the resources to locate the signal, much less necessarily chase it down. Even though I do agree that this seventh body is the puppeteer/'borg queen' you have to off to really kill or neutralize Pein, and not just knock his puppet/drone bodies down temporarily.

In a fight situation, the biggest threat may just be an opponent figuring out the chakra transceivers are the piercing and smashing them- effectively cutting off that body from the signal. If you can disconnect all six bodies that way, Pein may not be 'dead', but he's out of commission. He can't 'be there' at that fight any longer. I suspect this may be what Yahiko!Pein meant about Jiraiya figuring out his secret.

But I'm sure someone will have to root out that seventh body somehow, presuming it exists. 'The real one it's there' sure suggests it does, as we've discussed. And the best way to avoid this would be to make sure no one even guesses it exists at all.

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'The real one it's there'

'The rest one ISN'T there.' Also deva Pein has a perfectly good name as such and I guess I don't have to call him Yahiko!body!Pein. Random brainFAIL.

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He does seem dazed; maybe it has something to do with having his consciousness being so scattered. I wonder if he would be more normal if he had less bodies? Or if he gets more spacey the further his bodies go away from one another? Maybe Nagato!Pein isn't like that, since he's the original. And, you know, presumably not a reanimated corpse.

It could be that he gets overwhelmed with the sensory data from six bodies at once. I'm sure it feels really weird, even if it doesn't actually put him into a weird disassociated state. Dazed is imo pretty good description, though.

His bodies operate on chakra transceivers so you'd figure that having them spread out more (or all in complicated action, for that matter) would have some affect on the signal. I also tend to prefer the idea that the Yahiko!body is 'different' on some level, though. I think mostly because the machines and the six body system seems so over the top and frankenstein-ish and... very Madara somehow. I have no excuse other than pure fangirlism, but eh, I'd prefer to think that the whole Nagato-Yahiko body transfer was something one of them did to protect the other.

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Eugh, now that I think about it, I really hope that one of Pein's powers is something that allows him to process all of that. Otherwise, I think that would literally drive you nuts. ...Er, not that Akatsuki isn't basically like the most awesome psych ward ever, but hey.

I'd prefer to think that the whole Nagato-Yahiko body transfer was something one of them did to protect the other.

Nagato/Yahiko/Konan had better be a ship now. The idea that Yahiko!Pein is somehow "real" in a way that most of the others aren't is kinda... creepy from a Pein/Konan perspective, though. It's like, "Ew, I'm screwing my childhood friend's reanimated corpse." Like I said, most awesome psych ward ever.

...Er, that aside, it'll be interesting to find out exactly what did happen with Nagato and Yahiko. And what's-his-face (terrible with names? who, me?) who first had the rinnegan. I have this horrible feeling that he's still out there somewhere/is going to turn out to important in some other way. Gah, I hope he's not still alive. That would be like Madara, the sequel.

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You'd really hope so, huh? The least a dojutsu thingie could to is also give you the neurological stuffs to actually use the technique and not go nuts in the process. Though Pein does seem pretty nuts. And hellz yeah everyone in Akatsuki is crazypants. ~~It's part of their charm.~~

I'm all for a threesome, I just draw the line at a love triangle. But that's just personal taste, since I burnt out on the Team 7 triangle really fast. But Konan getting it on functionally with Yahiko's body even in the context of it being Nagato!Pein does make PeinKonan reaaaaaally weird in a big hurry. Hieronymousb and I were speculating at one point that this also means that if the pair have kids? Yeah, they're Yahiko's biological children. ~~Imagine explaining that one to your kids. YUP, your real bio dad is a corpse possessed by the the guy who's actually married to you mom. Fun!~~

I can't remember who that guy was either. 'Rikkudo' or something? _____ of the six paths? Sure is a weird coincidence that the rinnegan just resurfaced out of nowhere in some orphan kid, huh? And yeah, he does seem very Madara-ish. ~~And while Madara's the bestest over the top evil bastard ever, I agree that we don't need TWO of him.~~

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I want to know how he learned to process so much input in the first place. It seems like something you'd be in deep shit if you screwed up on, since you'd basically have multiple bodies, none of which you could actually use very well.

Love triangles = (nearly) instant fail. Mostly because people seem to think it's code for 'evil person trying to tear apart my otp.' Pein/Konan kids would be... interesting. Although I kinda hate to think what would happen if she did her whole flying around as little bits of paper thing while pregnant. It makes me think of thin little slices of fetus getting scattered around everywhere.

Sure is a weird coincidence that the rinnegan just resurfaced out of nowhere in some orphan kid, huh?

Nagato probably has a crown-shaped birthmark somewhere. Or at least thinks he does. Makes we want to know how exactly the rinnegan is inherited/transmitted/whatever, since presumably it doesn't run in families the way the byakugan and sharingan do. It would be kinda cool to see what's-his-face come back and pwn Madara, though.

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I could see the sensory areas of the brain just adapting to be able to cope with ALL THAT STUFF coming at them. But given how much sensory overload or deprivation messes with people, I really can't see it not making him a bit odd in the head in the process.

Re: triangles
Yeah, I could do without another rigamarole about Character A loves B, B loves C, C loves A or is indifferent. Everyone's unhappy! whee! Boring. xD But Character C being the evil HOR who's getting in the way of A/B's true wuv is just extra special failboat time for sure. And re: Konan... I'd never actually thought of that. But huh. It does seem like she'd be unable to break down into paper totally while pregnant. Unless the fetus could break down with her. And be fine. And that's actually creepier than the whole having two daddies of various states of aliveness thing. xD

I'm completely stumped about the rinnegan's... path of inheritance or whatever. It seems like it should be genetic, but you figure that if the bloodline was in his family, he'd know about it. (I thought I saw it referred to as a bloodline limit anyway?) Even if it was extra-zomg-special rare in the bloodline. The way Kishi played it, it was more like it was a miraculous spontaneous appearance thing. Doesn't make any sense. Though the whole 'destined child' thing was a bit on the implausible side to begin with, I guess.

~~But Sasuke has to pwn Madara! HOW ELSE CAN HE LOOK KIND OF COOL? Kishi's got his priorities in order. xD~~

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Although I kinda hate to think what would happen if she did her whole flying around as little bits of paper thing while pregnant. It makes me think of thin little slices of fetus getting scattered around everywhere.

Maybe, but don't other ninja use their jutsu while pregnant? I wonder if Kurenai does any of that odd genjutsu stuff while pregnant. You'd have to wonder in general how any of that stuff would affect a kid. Since the characters themselves seem to come back together even after some really weird jutsu, I just don't know.

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I don't know about that. Nagato has been in Yahiko's body for so long now that Konan probably just sees Pein as Nagato, not Yahiko-with-weird-eyes. I tend not to assume there's any romantic involvement with Yahiko at all. Just Konan and Nagato. She and Pein live a pretty weird life. I doubt him sexing her up in their dead friend's body is anything particularly odd for those two. They process the weirdness fairly well and don't seem too freaked out by it. Their lives are plenty weird even without that element.

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