Chuunin - A Naruto Community

well Kishimoto is really unpredictable, Neji might get revived later? Just a guess!

I loved Hinata in this, she was so wonderful!

From:

firebomb.livejournal.com

You know, Hinata is growing on me. I didn't expect her to do such a thing... odd but she had a decent speech there.

And of course... NEJI. ;___; It like just hit me. I saw the last chapter and I was like 'meh' but this one hit me hard. Obito, you are one angry man... over nothing, really. Madara is just evil, pure evil... love him~ XD

lee

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teaspeak.livejournal.com

Well, about time Hinata got into the spotlight...she's been ignored for the majority of the manga. The shipping wars commence.

And while I guess I'm glad Naruto and the gang got over Neji's death fairly quickly (I WILL NEVER BE OVER HIS DEATH THOUGH, AGH), I...just can't over this:

(http://imgur.com/HrqVw)

THAT'S IT, NARUTO? THAT'S IT? Glad Hinata talk-no-jutsu-ed you out of losing hope, but Neji just got sporked by giant toothpicks for you and fucking died. Say more than KTHXBYE, okay? And then you just drop his body on the floor and you have your moment with Hinata over his bleeding corpse like he's some afterthought? Nice, real swell. Yeah. Neji deserves more respect than that. :/

...Aside from that, I was hoping we'd get Sasuke for Christmas. Still hoping.

Edited Date: 2012-12-27 09:53 am (UTC)

From:

neptune-melody.livejournal.com

This, this whole comment so much! Every time there was a panel of poor Neji just lying dead, I died a little more inside guuuhhh. My fave deserves so much morrreee ;________;

From:

teaspeak.livejournal.com

Oh man. Solidarity, right here. So glad I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Those 9 panels of his dead body in this chapter were really just too much for me. It was like a slap to the face. I mean, I understand the need for drama, but as if Neji fans weren't bleeding enough, it was like Kishi was just whoring out the fact that he's gone. Like, "PS folks, he's still dead, LOL!"

UGH, IF ONLY I COULD REVERSE TIME. NEJI MY POOR BABY WHY. D':

I'm still not done mourning...it's so sad. I wish I were though, just so that I can be happy and blissfully ignorant again. Merry fucking Christmas, Kishi. :( /sosadandbitternotevenNaruHinacanhelpme

From:

neptune-melody.livejournal.com

Oh, gurl sorry for the late reply btw just got back from vacation lol

Anyways, YES YES YES. It's like you're in my brain! I am so glad to not be alone in my feeeeeels
Every time I think about poor, deceased Neji my mind totally punks out, like NOOO he's not dead, he's totally still alive, it's all a lieeeee

:( NaruHina just rubs salt in the wound for me tbh because I don't feel it at all, and they're over there getting all fluffy and Neji won't ever be able to experience something like that because he's DEAD D: so rude!

From:

teaspeak.livejournal.com

Aww, haha, no problem. Hope you had fun. And Happy New Year! :D

There's so much empathy, I can't even. I feel like all Neji fans are going through some giant therapy sesh right now with all the fanfics and fanarts and such (I even ended up writing my own little drabble on his death, seriously).

Even though I guess it was a good thing that the gang moved on from the fact that he died (practically speaking), I'm pretty horrified there wasn't even that much of a reaction to it...not from Naruto, Hinata, Hiashi or anyone...not even a proper one from Team Gai (I mean, WTF...in the panels, even Sakura had more of a reaction to Neji's death than Gai or Lee...and you can't even tell Tenten was there if it weren't for her hair). :/

It seemed as if this chapter was more about ideologies and about Naruto still trying to validate his argument over Obito's. No matter the fact that there are victims dying as sacrifices for those ideologies, including Neji. TBH, it's gotten to the point where I couldn't care less about the purpose of the war or Naruto's self-righteous reason for winning anymore...fact is, Neji's gone and the Naruto fandom has nothing to offer me to replace the gaping hole in my chest. UGH. :'(

And yeah. NaruHina was like another stab to the wound. Kishi could've at least kept the self-confident Hinata persona that he had going on instead of reverting back to "HNGH, Naruto-kun's hand is so big and warm." Disappointment, all around. :/

I was thinking, would it have been better for Hiashi to die instead of Neji? I mean, the whole purpose was to have the Hyuuga clan change when it came to family affairs, and for the old generation to make way for the new one. Neji still had a pivotal role in acting as a tie between the Main and Branch families with Hinata...he still had so much to give. ;_;

And so much for Naruto proving Neji wrong about fate. Naruto is the freaking "Chosen One" of the Naru-verse and Neji still ended up dying to protect a Main Branch member. The only thing that softens the blow is that Neji said he "chose" to die for his nakama, but even then...yeah, no. Naruto's therapy-logic doesn't win out in the end.

SO MUCH FEELS I CAN'T. Ugh. Kishi's trolling hard like Kubo. WHY. D':

Edited Date: 2013-01-07 06:16 am (UTC)

From:

FUCK YES I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS SINCE FOREVER!!

(http://imgur.com/lVamG)

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sidenote...Idky~ but I feel like maybe Neji might get revived? Idk I just get that feeling~

From:

syrraki.livejournal.com

Awww hinata!! so cute and yet still up for slapping Naruto every now and then. wonderful blend.

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look at his "......" thinking damn, wish Rin is still alive

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LOL well that's a cute reference i laughed out loud. XD

From:

thiefofblood.livejournal.com

I'm so glad someone else mentioned HTTYD. No one I know (to my knowledge) reads Naruto and knew of HTTTYD for me to mention it!

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From:

thiefofblood.livejournal.com

XD Well it did seem like a nod to HTTYD a bit, so XDD It was also something to smile about in the midst of all the sad.

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whats HTTYD?

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IKR

From:

karkashan.livejournal.com

Despite my own personal shipping feels (narusaku ftw), I enjoyed this chapter.

Mostly because of the slap-to-the-face. That was awesome.

From:

shiyaki-chan.livejournal.com

Oh man, nowadays I feel so disconnected from Naruto (the manga) that I'm not even mourning for Neji (and he used to be one of my absolute favs)...*goes back to fanfictions and doujinshi*

Edited Date: 2012-12-27 05:19 pm (UTC)

From:

batsublue.livejournal.com

Oh Hinata, I love you and your face-slapping <3

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Hinata does a speech in order to cheer up Naruto. Now that's really some kind of change. Normally it's Naruto who does this kind of speeches. The only problem is what she says. I mean, there's plenty of reasons not to give in to Obito, but "let Neji's death not be pointless" is the most stupid one. I mean "stop the bloodshed" would be just logical as a consequence.

From:

hymnia.livejournal.com

I didn't really take it that way. It seemed like it was more of an extension of the same theme from way back in part one of protecting your precious people. The point of Hinata's speech was that even if the people you want to protect are killed it doesn't negate the importance of going forward and trying to protect the people you love, and that in some sense that includes honoring those who died by not giving up on what they fought for (i.e. to protect those they loved--those who are still living).

That said, I do wish someone would give a stronger counter to the whole Moon's Eye plan. There were actually people on NarutoForums arguing in favor of Obito's plan, saying Naruto should just give in to Obito. 0_o Clearly, it needs to be soundly refuted as a potential solution to the shinobi world's problems.

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I have already answered to

metal_hybrid, maybe my answer to her will be useful to you too, but I will also try to give you your own answer.

I did not analyze Hinata's speech as a whole (at the moment, I am far more interested in the Hobbit than in Naruto), but only that one line at the bottom of page 9 (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/615/9), and maybe what the Kyuubi says about Naruto's parents, and also the other people who died.

I think that there's plenty of reasons not to give in to Obito, but a sense of duty towards those who died is not a good reason.

"Go on fighting so that your comrades' death is not pointless" is one of the classical lines of war propaganda, including all pep-up talks and morale-boosting speeches. (I looked up "Durchhalteparole" in a dictionary. I hope I found the correct words.) It's a line that works, because as you said a lot of people want to honour their dead friends by continuing their fight and going on where there friends were killed. But often, the result was simply that the war was lost all the same, and that the only thing the pep-up talk achieved was an even higher death toll.

When you decide whether you want to go on fighting or not, you have to ask yourselves whether the war is winnable, and whether it's just, and whether there's better solutions. Maybe in the present situations, going on fighting is really the best solution - but not because of Neji's death. You also have to think for yourself and to judge for yourself, and then come to your own decision. You don't have to honour a cause just because your friends honoured it. Even though they are dead, you still don't have to follow them, but you have to use your own judgement. You can still honour your friends, and mourn for them, saying "their death was not pointless because it made us stop and think and reconsider our actions and see that no more people will die."

As I said, that's probably not the case here: here there's reasons to go on fighting. But not in order to honour the dead. That's always stupid and dangerous. (Well, yes, that's what scientific training does to you: it's not enough that someone's words are correct, but he or she also must give a viable reason why they are correct.)

Concerning the Moon's Eye Plan: The difficulty with countering it is that the plan is so absurd that you don't know what to say. I mean, in order for life to be meaningful, it must be real, and no illusion, and also no illusion that was created by someone else. In order for life to be meaningful, there need to be real obstacles and problems, but also you must be able to solve these problems and overcome these obstacles by your own actions. That's the kind of life that's satisfying - everything else is like a video game in cheat modus.

From:

hymnia.livejournal.com

That's the kind of life that's satisfying - everything else is like a video game in cheat modus.

LOL, good analogy. I agree it's hard to articulate the reasons, but I'd still like to see someone try, even if it's just to say, "The kind of life you are offering us is meaningless." Naruto did sort of attempt this at one point when he told Obito about his dream to be Hokage. I think the idea was to communicate that the power of having a goal or a dream is in trying to achieve it when there is no guarantee that you will, but if that's what he was trying to say, I don't think he articulated it all that well. Also I think maybe one of the kages said something along those lines way back when the plan was first unveiled, but that was a long time ago, and I think it bears repeating. (I think I'm right about this...I don't really recall for sure and don't feel like looking up the chapter(s) right now.)

Re: The rest of your comment: See my response below. We seem to have passed each other by on the virtual highway. ;)

The only other thing I'll add is that it's perfectly understandable that this one line struck you because of its similarity to war propaganda. However, for me personally I prefer to look at all of Hinata's speech more holistically, and also at the context that she and Naruto are in fact grieving for a specific person, and not just talking about war deaths in the abstract. In light of that, it makes sense that she would point to Neji's death and emphasize what he was trying to accomplish--which was, again, to protect others, not to advance a political agenda.

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Yes, I remember that people at the kage summit speaking against that plan. It was mostly because it meant a loss of freedom, IIRC.

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Yeah IA.

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Okay, I'll try to explain it. The point is not whether Naruto should have given in to Obito or not. The point is, that "otherwise Neji's death will be pointless" is the wrong reason. As I said, there's lots of reasons why it's better not to give in to Obito, but "the deaths on the alliance's side really would be pointless" is not a good reason for it.

There's situations where it's good to go on fighting, and there' situations when it's not good to go on fighting. But when you think what kind of situation you are in you should consider whether the war is justifiable, and winnable, and whether there might be better solutions etc. You should the future, not about the sacrifice of your friends, however much you admired them.

The line Hinata brings up is one that has been used far too often in order to make soldiers continue a fight that has become hopeless. The only result is that even more people get killed. (In economics, this is called "sunk cost fallacy". It means that sometimes people who have invested into a business that's not profitable keep investing even more money into it, because otherwise the money they already invested would be lost. But often the result is only that the money keep investing is lost too. Sometimes it's better to "cut losses", and when you decide what's the right decision, you should not think about the money you already invested.)

I keep up with the manga even though it gives me more horror than joy these days. The horror is that it claims to be a story about peace, but what it offers is war propaganda. They should have left out that line (it's on page 9 in the mangapanda version), because it's just a classic line.

From:

hymnia.livejournal.com

I get what you are saying--validating lives that were sacrificed by continuing a battle/war without regard to the merits of the battle/war itself is not good. I agree that hearkens to some very disturbing chapters of history (including some currently unfolding). But I just don't see this as what Hinata is trying to say. To her, the purpose of resisting Obito and Madara is indeed to protect people's lives, not to advance an agenda. What she is saying is that the fact that there is loss of life does not negate the desire to protect those who are still living. Neji didn't die in order to advance a particular agenda, but in order to protect people he cared about. That is the main theme--stand up and keep protecting your comrades, the way Neji did.

Also, I would argue that "stop the bloodshed" can be as problematic an argument as "don't let their deaths be in vain", especially when that argument is coming from the aggressors, as it is in this case. You don't stop bloodshed by lying down and accepting whatever terms the aggressor gives you, no matter how terrible. Obito is trying to convince Naruto that he is responsible for this bloodshed when in fact, it is Obito who is doing all the killing via the Juubi. Much of the purpose of Hinata's speech is to help Naruto refuse to accept that blame.

Again, I would still rather see someone effectively address why the Moon's Eye Plan is an unacceptable solution to the shinobi world's problems. But I think Hinata's speech hits the right tone here. It might be different if continuing the battle was indeed a poor choice, but right now, the Alliance doesn't have a whole lot of other choices--it's either resist and continue to fight back despite the losses they've experienced, or surrender to the Moon's Eye Plan, which would in fact stop the bloodshed, but at an unacceptable cost.

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Also, I would argue that "stop the bloodshed" can be as problematic an argument as "don't let their deaths be in vain", especially when that argument is coming from the aggressors, as it is in this case

Well, yes, that's true, but that's why I said that you have to look at the situation at hand.

I don't analyze Hinata's speech as a whole, but I think that this specific line shoud have been left out, because it's one of the classical lines of war propaganda.

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