Is image heavy and contains spoilers if you only watch the anime.

[dlvr.livejournal.com]

Okay chuunin-ers I need to get something off my chest.

 

 Jiraiya is not ........

 
Jiraiya is not dead.


This is not just wishful thinking on my part I have my reasons for believing this…



#1

Choji did not die while fighting Jirobo. However, it took 43 chapters to find out.




#2

Neji did not die while fighting Kidomaru. But it took 36 chapters to find out.



#3

Orochimaru did not die when cut up into chunks with Sasuke’s katana. But it took 47 chapters to find out.




#4

Sandaime did die while fighting Orochimaru, we found out in the very same chapter.



#5

Asuma died while fighting Hidan, we found out in the same chapter. 



#6

Gaara died while having his bijuu extracted, It took 19 chapters before we found out he could be resurrected.



Jiraiya has been M.I.A. for 29 chapters.




The real reason I don’t believe Jiraiya is dead…














 



Jiraiya keeps restating the need to "never give up".

Dying would be giving up.


The only reason we actually have to believe in Jiraiya’s death comes from 
Fukasaku-sama (the old frog guy) who left just as Jiraiya’s body fell into the 
water, So he never saw a corpse, he is only assuming. (And considering 
Jiraiya is a toad sage, he can probably breathe under water.)



I will only believe he is truly dead when I see Naruto at his funeral on the 
roof of the Hokage tower wearing his mourning clothes. (And probably not even then.)


Kishi does this time and time again, I can’t understand why People are so 
willing to believe he’s gone.



And by the way, I’m really disappointed in Naruto believing that Jiraya died 
just like that. He should’ve had more faith…



….I have faith in you Ero-sennin, I have faith. 








edit: two cuts are better than none.

Comments

[officialbizness.livejournal.com]

I'm following the logic, but considering the way that Chouji and Neji's deaths were not acknowledged by any other characters and not necessary to carry on the plot, unlike how the deaths of Asuma, Orochimaru, Sandaime, Gaara, and now Jiraiya were, I must disagree. If I need to eat these words in a year, so be it!

[dlvr.livejournal.com]

Jiraiya doesn't need to be dead to carry on the plot, it is only necessary
for Konoha to believe he is dead.

Re: I LOVE YOU

[dlvr.livejournal.com]

Ah, but Naruto has three sensei ;) if one has to die the most logical (for me anyway) would be Kakashi, it seems unlikely that Naruto would be made hokage if he were still alive.

Sasuke will return, one day. I'm not giving up on him either.

Maybe Kurenai's baby should take her last name. I read a short one-shot somewhere about Konohamaru and how he refused to smoke or grow a beard because he was worried about the Sarutobi legacy.

[dlvr.livejournal.com]

It's interesting that you mention Tsunade not retrieving his corpse, that is not something I'd considered. It gives me even more hope :)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

You're right, you'd think Tsunade would want to see for herself that Jiraya were dead, and also see what they could discover about his enemy from how Jiraiya was killed. Hmmm.

[demondreams.livejournal.com]

I sort of figured that they never sent anyone to retrieve the corpse because well... If they could kill JiRaiya then who could really be sent and have a shot in hell?

[winterwing3000.livejournal.com]

It's also possible for Pein to have taken Jiraiya's corpse and used it. 0.0 Or Pein's keeping an alive Jiraiya imprisoned. Who knows. Kishimoto's whacked up.

But then again, he might actually be dead. T___T Poor Jiraiya!!

[premium-shaday.livejournal.com]

D8

[dlvr.livejournal.com]

Yes, he could be a prisoner, it would be very careless of Pein if he didn't check to make sure Jiraiya was dead.

[fjazz13.livejournal.com]

Maybe Jiraiya is now part of Pein's bodies or puppets that's how we'll see him next time probably? not sure how that works or even if they hold some sort of their old selves if they're dead. It could be something like that anyway.

[dlvr.livejournal.com]

Good point, Pein could walk through the gates of Konoha in Jiraiya's body!

[naruto-watch.livejournal.com]

Oh god, that would be amazing. o.O

[sun-myths.livejournal.com]

I don't think dying would equal giving up. Especially not when the death is for an important cause, as Jiraiya's was.

[dlvr.livejournal.com]

Dying = giving up is the whole basis of my argument, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

[atom0001.livejournal.com]

As much as I'd like for this to be true, I'd rather face reality and be pleasantly surprised, then remain hopeful and have that hope shattered.

[dlvr.livejournal.com]

But what is reality in a ninja-verse where 12 year old boys can disguise themselves as nubile, naked young women, walk on water and breathe fire

[kayuuko.livejournal.com]

Well... during the last Jump event Naruto's seiyuu asked Kishimoto if Jiraiya is really dead and he answered that he will live on in our hearts...
He didn't say no nor did he say yes...

I have to search for that report again but I am pretty sure that he said it like this.

[dlvr.livejournal.com]

Kishi is playing with us!

[akapiratequeen.livejournal.com]

Yes, I remember he said that too. I was depressed for days when Jiraiya died. Would love to see him again, in ghost-form or otherwise. Perhaps he'd like to be reincarnated in New Jersey.

[dlvr.livejournal.com]

Are there lots of beautiful women in New Jersey?

[teambenevolence.livejournal.com]

I think it's safe to say Jiraiya's dead. Why else send the toads with the message and not try to deliver it himself? Also consider his last scene, where he reconsiders Naruto to be the chosen child. What better way for him to die than to be seen as passing on the torch to the next generation, like Asuma did with his speech about the king and so on?

With Chouji, Neji and Orochimaru it was never announced to other characters they had 'died' (even if the readers were lead to believe so), whereas Jiraiya was, never mind that he was obviously fatally injured in the fight with Pein. And unlike the Sasuke retrieval squad, there was no way a medic nin could have found and healed him in time.

[dlvr.livejournal.com]

Well I also thought, why didn't Jiraiya summon a toad and escape, taking the message back to Konoha? Because as I mentioned in another reply Kishi is playing with us, he wants us to believe he is dead, why else would he wait 29 chapters without giving us solid evidence. Giving Jiraiya an epic speech to go 'out' with could just be another way to cloud the issue, make his death believable.

The time span of the Sasuke retrieval arc was very short, maybe 24 hours (it is always hard to judge time in Naruto) so this would be why no other characters knew about Chouji and Neji, as for Orochimaru, I can't remember if it was mentioned to Tsunade, I probably read that in a fan-fic.

As for Jiraiya being 'obviously fatally injured' I wouldn't call it obvious, after all Deidara had both arms ripped off and survived with no trouble. Who's to say he needs a med-nin, he is a legendary sannin, Orochimaru didn't die the first time he was killed either.

[paperninja.livejournal.com]

Could be. And your demonstration that Kishimoto's done the same thing several times before is very relevant.

The question in my mind is: does it intensify the main conflict of the series (Can/should Naruto save Sasuke?) to have Jiraiya alive but MIA, or actually dead? I could see arguments either way.

But the first thing that comes to my mind is that Jiraiya's death functions to put more stress on Naruto (who is acting mostly out of faith, determination and optimism) and raise the emotional stakes of that central conflict. Jiraiya, after all, couldn't save Orochimaru (who was possibly beyond saving), and ultimately lost his life in the struggle against Akatsuki (who are already being blurred with Sasuke into one Big Bad rather than two factions.) Jiraiya's example therefore could be seen as further evidence that Naruto is on a fool's errand in trying to save Sasuke, or in even insisting that Sasuke can be redeemed. This puts more pressure on Naruto to hold on to his faith in Sasuke's better nature and to continue believing that no one is beyond redemption. Add to this that Jiraiya was someone Naruto was very close to, and has always been set up as a symbol of where Naruto may end up himself. The series is, imo, emotionally compelling because the dilemma Naruto faces (can I save this person? Should I save this person? Is this person who I thought he was or was I just kidding myself?) is so fraught, difficult and lacking in a quick easy answer. If I were in Kishi's shoes myself, I'd consider leaving Jiraiya dead to be the best option for the story- intensify that conflict, intensify the suspense.

But that said, I'm tempted to want Jiraiya back just because he was one of my favorite characters. R.I.P Ero-sennin. :/ I'd definitely be glad to see him survive anyway, all technical plot stuff aside.

[dlvr.livejournal.com]

It's 7 a.m. here, you're making me think too hard!

For me the central conflict is 'when' will Naruto save Sasuke (this current deviation from his original goal should actually bring him back into contact with Sasuke now).

If Naruto believes Jiraiya to be dead (as he seems to) he will use that belief to drive him on towards his goals(gaining power,seeking revenge,
hmm,sounds familiar). If later Jiraiya turns up alive, his 'death' will still have served it's purpose of 'raising the emotional stakes' as you say.

I agree that Naruto's life mirrors Jiraiya's (even to the point where he may turn down the hokage position one day) but it differs in one big respect,
Naruto will never give up on Sasuke as Jiraiya gave up on Orochimaru. Because
for me there is a quick and easy answer, Naruto knows he can/will save Sasuke. I don't believe he really questions this (aside from the occasional doubt). At the end of part one when Jiraiya tells Naruto he will train him, but only if he forgets about Sasuke, Naruto doesn't hesitate to choose, even if it makes him a fool.

My reasons for believing Jiraya is still alive ultimately have nothing to do with whether it's good for the plot, but whether it will surprise the target audience, teenage boys.

[dlvr.livejournal.com]

As I mentioned before, it's possible he can breathe underwater, part toad and all, and as for the rest I just want to BELIEVE.

[derranged.livejournal.com]

I'm going with you on this. Somehow I feel that Jiraiya did survive the attacks by Pein, even though it DID seem hopeless for him. But if you look back on most of the other incidents when main characters seem to be lost, they make it back somehow, even if barely. Jiraiya is a strong shinobi, both in body, spirit, and will. Yes he could still be dead, but the likeliness of him having survived is high in my belief. We never saw him actually die, we only saw the damage and assumed he could have not made it.

Hope for Jiraiya's survival is still there. That's what I believe.

[dlvr.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

When I posted this I really didn't think there would be so much negativity, even though people want him alive they are not prepared to believe. So thank you.

[hieronymousb.livejournal.com]

I do love Jiraiya, and I think his death is quite sad, but I also think in terms of the narrative, it makes sense, and I do believe he is dead.

Your post brings up an interesting point regarding the number of volumes between potential deaths and the confirmations/denials thereof, but I think the other issue to consider is the age/role of the presumed deceased. Neji, Chouji, and Gaara are all young guys, "the next generation". Sarutobi, Asuma, and Jiraiya are a good bit older. Under the circumstances in which Sarutobi died, I got a distinct sense of "heralding in the next generation", so to speak. To some degree, I get the same sense with Naruto and Shikamaru regarding Jiraiya's and Asuma's deaths.

By contrast, Chouji, Neji, and Gaara were young guys who were just discovering themselves and coming into their own. Chouji and Neji were learning the value of self-acceptance. Gaara had just became Kazekage. He had his whole life ahead of him. I think with Kishi, there's a narrative pattern of not killing characters until those characters have come full circle, so to speak; the deaths of those three would not have counted as full circle. Under the circumstances, I believe Sarutobi's death would count as such, given how and why he died. Same for Jiraiya, especially when one takes into account Jiraiya's flashbacks of Kushina, Minato, and his naming of Naruto. Asuma is the one character who sort of doesn't fit this mold, since his death didn't seem to accomplish anything and didn't seem to be tied into some greater good, but then the way it was tied into Shikamaru's reaction to it, it ended up fitting this overall pattern.

So, I do believe Jiraiya is dead due to what it would mean for the narrative and narrative similarities, and the idea of coming full circle.

[dlvr.livejournal.com]

I take your point but, it seems unlikely that Kishi would not let young/inexperienced ninja die, just because they had not led a full life(Obito is a case in point), death is a fact of life, especially for a ninja. I can't believe the rookie nine and team Gai will all survive to the end of the story.(You can probably add the sand siblings to that list as well.)

I agree Asuma's death seemed solely engineered to prod Shikamaru's character development, and the death of Sarutobi senior was necessary (especially in light of Madera's revelations to Sasuke) but I still don't understand why Jiraiya's death would accomplish anything. There are very few older ninja in Konoha, the two councilors and Danzou aside, (and there days are probably numbered) it seems to me a good idea to hang on to the few older role models they have left.

[ootorotan.livejournal.com]

You make a lot of good points here. I honestly don't know what to think anymore. I mean, I did mourn him when it happened, but at the same time I never quite believed it, because as you said, he was just there in the water. And we don't know what happened after that. There hasn't been a funeral.
I've been back and forth trying to grasp this situation, and while I for the time being think that Jiraiya is dead - I can't help but think of all the others that we're presumed dead but weren't. This is Naruto. You never know what Kishimoto's gonna do next. So until I see Jiraiya's corpse in a coffin, or something equally proven, I won't believe it fully.

I don't know. When you put up all the reasons NOT to believe it in one post, it's so easy to reconsider and think that he's probably alive somewhere hiding.
But at the same time there's the way they talk about it and portray it...

But yeah, Naruto doesn't really seem like the type to accept it so easily. I wouldn't expect him to just give up on Jiraiya like that, not without having seen a corpse. O.o

[dlvr.livejournal.com]

Regarding Naruto's blind acceptance, this kind of gives me more reason to believe he's alive. If Naruto insisted Jiraiya's death wasn't possible
then the reader would have second thoughts too, making it less of a surprise when he turns up alive and well.

[nefertieh.livejournal.com]

As much as I would love for Jiraiya to be alive, I still think he's dead. Why? Because unlike Neji or Chouji's 'death,' Jiraiya had accomplished much in his life and provided a long background story of his life before his death. Also, Tsunade and the rest of the team have had their own 'mourning' pages. Not to mention that Tsunade hints at Jiraiya's death before he goes off to fight Pein/ Pain (like Chiyo and Asuma). Lastly I think the most obvious thing would be Kishimoto's art on the Naruto volumes with Naruto and Jiraiya together. It's quiet and sad in a way.

Also I don't think there's much of a reason for Jiraiya to be alive anymore. >_>; Like, his character played his purpose, so there's no real point in bringing him back.

[nefertieh.livejournal.com]

Also, I would think that "not giving up" is something really strong and brave for someone's last words, and the fact that he wrote a 'code' to be translated after his death could be what he meant. Not necessarily not dying at all.